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+ Author Topic: GNS and player rewards (Read 1480 times)
+
+ [44]JMendes [47][IMG] [48]GNS and player rewards
+ Member << on: October 31, 2002, 01:21:08 PM >>
+
+ Posts: 187 ----------------------------------------------------
+
+ [45]View Hi, all, :)
+ Profile
+ [46]Personal Appols if this has been asked and answered (in which
+ Message case check out this thread replies are appreciated).
+ (Offline)
+ Anyway, how does one reward players in the various
+ GNS modes?
+
+ (Ex. would be: a gamist mode rewards a player by
+ awarding character advancement; or, a gamist mode
+ rewards a player by tallying problems successfully
+ solved, thus allowing said player to bask under the
+ glory of said tally; or something else entirely...)
+
+ Cheers,
+
+ J.
+ [49]Logged
+
+ ----------------------------------------------------
+
+ João Mendes
+ Lisbon, Portugal
+ [50]M. J. [59]GNS and player rewards
+ Young [58][IMG] << Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002,
+ Member 06:15:17 PM >>
+
+ Posts: 2123 --------------------------------------------------
+
+ [51]1735114 It's not so cut-and-dried as that, I think.
+ [52]MarkJYoung There's a sense in which the rewards can be almost
+ [53]tiras1 anything and fit any type of play; it's more a
+ [54]View matter of how they're earned than what they
+ Profile are--although yes, there are some rewards that fit
+ [55]WWW some kinds of play better. But maybe I can provide
+ [56]Email an outrageous example.
+ [57]Personal
+ Message Multiverser has no "reward system" at all; there
+ (Offline) is a sense in which nothing is rewarded and
+ nothing is given as a reward. Yet people play it,
+ and find rewards, because the rewards are inherent
+ to the experience.
+
+ [*]To the Gamist, the ultimate reward is that
+ feeling that you just won, that you beat the
+ odds or overcame the enemy or solved the problem
+ in a significant way. I'm currently playing in a
+ Multiverser game in which I was engaged in a
+ battle of magic (and my character was completely
+ new to magic, making it up as he went along).
+ The attacker fled; the attacker's conjured
+ assassin was driven away. I had beaten the
+ enemy, I had won the conflict. The gamist reward
+ here is phenomenal.
+ [*]To the Simulationist, reward is a lot more
+ subtle. It involves feeling like you've entered
+ another reality, in some sense, that you've
+ explored a possibility and discovered something
+ about it. In that same game world, my background
+ in law convinced the local prince to assign me
+ the rather complex task of organizing his
+ judicial system and creating a legislature as a
+ way to bring his medieval princedom toward a
+ modern democratic citystate. I've spent quite a
+ bit of time figuring out how to organize a dozen
+ judges into a tiered judicial system with an
+ emphasis on precedent, and more on devising a
+ bicameral legislature in which one house
+ represents the fading nobility and the other the
+ mostly illiterate peasantry (how do you arrange
+ elections for representatives when the
+ electorate can't read and write?). I'm watching
+ the world evolve, and I'm involved in the center
+ of it. There is a great reward in being part of
+ something like this.
+ [*]To the Narrativist--well, there are a lot of
+ ways to say it that will lead someone to object
+ to the terminology, but let me suggest that the
+ reward for narrativists is the creation of
+ something of a morality play; that is, we've
+ created a story which is about an issue. In that
+ same world, the man who appointed me his head
+ justice required that I "swear fealty" to him,
+ and I in essence did so: I told him that I
+ didn't promise not to argue with him, but in the
+ end I would recognize he had the right to decide
+ what the law was. But this man has closed all
+ the churches in the princedom. It was his
+ opinion that the religious people were fighting
+ with each other to the detriment of the
+ community, so he made public religious ceremony
+ illegal. My character is very religious; and
+ since he has taken his position he has
+ discovered that one of the major religious
+ groups which have been "shut down" is
+ essentially agreed with his own faith. He is now
+ in a position in which he has sworn obligations
+ to uphold a law that could easily be used to
+ persecute people who share his religious
+ beliefs, which indeed could be used to accuse
+ his self of treason. The tension here is a
+ wonderful narrativist premise, as the character
+ must wrestle with whether he can serve as the
+ chief jurist in a legal system that oppresses
+ his own faith, or whether he can from his
+ position of limited authority make it possible
+ for that faith (and others?) to continue to be
+ practiced and encouraged in the city despite the
+ strictures placed upon it. The reward here comes
+ from resolving those tensions in one direction
+ or another. Narrativist rewards can in some ways
+ be the most interesting. My character could be
+ the deliverer who puts the crack in the wall
+ that ultimately admits the flood, such that the
+ prince is forced to permit faith again to be
+ expressed and practiced openly. He could instead
+ be the martyr whose death galvinizes the people
+ to stand up for their freedom. There are great
+ story possibilities here, and the realization of
+ those story possibilities is itself the
+ reward.[/list:u]
+
+ Now, there's a lot of talk about how mechanical
+ reward systems can be gamist, narrativist, or
+ simulationist; but what that means ultimately is
+ that the rewards encourage one kind of
+ play--they are given for actions of a particular
+ type, and/or they are in a currency which can be
+ used for actions of a particular type.
+
+ [*]A character earns experience points for
+ beating the odds, whether that's for killing
+ monsters, solving riddles, capturing enemy
+ spies, disarming explosives, or any other
+ in-game challenge. That experience is then
+ spent to make him better at killing monsters,
+ solving riddles, capturing enemy spies,
+ disarming explosives, or some other in-game
+ challenge. This is a palpably gamist reward
+ system, because rewards are given to
+ reinforce the inherent reward of winning, and
+ are a type which help the character win over
+ greater odds in the future.
+ [*]A player recognizes that his character has
+ values which could easily be brought into
+ conflict. He moves that character into a
+ place where the conflict will be forced upon
+ the character, where he will have to choose
+ between one value and another, and in doing
+ so is given a credit. He may then use the
+ credit to purchase something to add to play
+ that will help resolve this conflict one way
+ or the other, such as bringing another
+ character into the scene, or placing a
+ previously unmentioned object within reach.
+ This is an arguably narrativist reward
+ system, because it gives rewards for the
+ creation of premise-enhancing situations
+ which are of a type which helps the player
+ advance the core of the story. (This is more
+ difficult, as a very similar reward system
+ could be used in a simulationist exploration
+ of character/situation game; it's just the
+ best I could produce at the moment.)
+ [*]A character in a new city takes a job as a
+ stablehand. The player puts effort into
+ describing the life and activities of a
+ stablehand, and his character's feelings
+ about this; he controls the character to be a
+ good stablehand. A tally is kept of the time
+ he spends at this activity, with extra
+ credits for doing it well. When a
+ predetermined score is reached, the owner of
+ the stable approaches the character and
+ offers to promote him to work as a groom.
+ This is arguably a simulationist reward
+ system, as the rewards are given for playing
+ appropriately in the context of the setting
+ and lead to new opportunities to explore
+ other aspects of the setting.
+ [/list:u]
+ There are countless ways to do reward systems
+ for each sort of play. I suspect that the way
+ to get at it, though, is to begin with an
+ idea of how the game works without any reward
+ system at all, to determine what sort of play
+ you want to encourage, and then create a
+ reward system which gives the players
+ currency in response to the sort of actions
+ desired which can be spent to make possible
+ more of that sort of actions.
+
+ Does that make sense?
+
+ (And anyone who wants to suggest a better
+ example of a narrativist reward system--or
+ any other--please do so.)
+
+ --M. J. Young
+ [60]Logged
+
+ --------------------------------------------------
+
+ Check out [61]Multiverser
+ [62]M. J. Young Net
+ [63]Cassidy [67]GNS and player rewards
+ Member [66][IMG] << Reply #2 on: November 02, 2002,
+ 11:04:29 AM >>
+ Posts: 165
+ ----------------------------------------------------
+ [64]View
+ Profile Quote from: M. J. Young
+ [65]Personal Does that make sense?
+ Message
+ (Offline) Absolutely.
+
+ For me, the key to rewarding players is essentially
+ knowing what their premise is and making sure that
+ it's fulfilled.
+
+ I can only relate my own experiences but for players
+ with a narrative slant I very often let them assume
+ the role of significant NPCs in the game.
+
+ Mercenary Leader, Religious Zealot, Cowardly
+ Nobleman, you name it, I've had them play it.
+
+ It obviously takes a lot of setting up and
+ discussion one-on-one with the player concerned
+ prior to play which in itself is rewarding for the
+ players concerned.
+
+ For players coming from a simulationist angle, if
+ the setting, characters, conflicts and situations
+ within the game are engaging enough and really grab
+ their interest then playing becomes it's own reward.
+
+ The players like that in my group really don't give
+ a hoot about experience points, story points or
+ whatever in fact I never use experience points as
+ such.
+
+ The odd ad-hoc change in an ability from time to
+ time as a consequence of a characters experiences in
+ the game works well enough. It makes sense to me and
+ more importantly it makes sense to the players. It's
+ never a player initiated thing, it's just something
+ that I mention to the player in passing when I feel
+ the change is warranted. The player modifies their
+ character sheet and thats all there is to it.
+
+ The problem I have most is satisfying players with a
+ gamist premise.
+
+ Winning and losing in RPGs is something that I've
+ never been able to get my head around. Maybe it's
+ just my own experience but the players in my group
+ who play the the game from a gamist standpoint only
+ seem to come alive when there is something to hit.
+
+ They really appear to have little interest in
+ exploring the setting or involving themselves in
+ situations that don't have an element of combat
+ associated to them.
+
+ The only reward they are interested in is
+ "improvement" of their characters abilities and a
+ desire for more combat in the game.
+
+ Combat for combat's sake bores me. Unless the
+ characters are in a truly threatening situation and
+ they stand a real chance of dying then it appears to
+ be a real waste of time. I can't do that every
+ session.
+
+ Conversely, a session without combat is often seen
+ as boring or unrewarding certain players in my
+ group.
+
+ I do run my games primarily from a
+ simulation/narrative angle and I do introduce combat
+ intensive scenes as a means of presenting the group
+ with a dramatic life or death situation.
+
+ I just feel that I can't satisfy the players in my
+ group who play from an apparently gamist standpoint
+ because I think the type of game they want to play
+ isn't really the type of game I want to run.
+ [68]Logged
+ [69]MK [73]GNS and player rewards
+ Snyder [72][IMG] << Reply #3 on: November 02, 2002,
+ Member 07:32:32 PM >>
+
+ Posts: 116 ----------------------------------------------------
+
+ [70]View I think that given an awareness of what style of
+ Profile play is most satisfying to the player, and having
+ [71]Personal the play tailored to that style by the GM or group
+ Message or at least respectfully ackowledged as a desire and
+ (Offline) given a share of the session form and focus (turns),
+ that players are rewarded by play itself.
+
+ Conflict and frustration are lessened as players are
+ not attempting to force/encourage one another into
+ playing to misunderstood and possibly conflicting
+ standards.
+
+ It enhances the process of play. Mechanical/ design
+ changes may not be necessary.
+
+ In other words... if the players are having more fun
+ because what they like to happen is happening, they
+ don't need no steenkin XP's to sweeten it.
+ [74]Logged
+
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