|
1 Link: [1]help |
|
2 Link: [2]search |
|
3 Link: [3]contents |
|
4 Link: [4]previous |
|
5 Link: [5]next |
|
6 Link: [6]index |
|
7 |
|
8 [7]About the Forge | [8]Articles | [9]Forum | [10]Reviews | [12]* |
|
9 [11]Resource Library |
|
10 [13]* |
|
11 [14]Home |
|
12 [15]Help |
|
13 [16]Search |
|
14 [17]Edit Profile |
|
15 [18]Logout |
|
16 Hey, fabien, you have [19]0 Forum changes: Editing of posts |
|
17 messages, 0 are new. has been turned off until |
|
18 Total time logged in: 30 minutes. further notice. |
|
19 [20]Show unread posts since last |
|
20 visit. |
|
21 [21]Show new replies to your |
|
22 posts. |
|
23 February 21, 2006, 06:02:54 AM |
|
24 |
|
25 Search: [22]_____________________ [23][ Search ] [24]Advanced |
|
26 search |
|
27 |
|
28 196611 Posts in 18462 Topics by Most online today: 102 - most online |
|
29 5889 Members Latest Member: - ever: 143 (January 24, 2006, |
|
30 [25]argology 05:56:13 AM) |
|
31 |
|
32 [26]+ [27]The Forge |
|
33 [28]|-[29]+ [30]General Forge Forums |
|
34 [31]| [32]|-[33]+ [34]GNS Model Discussion |
|
35 [35]| | [36]|-[37]+ [38]GNS and player [39]<< previous [40]next |
|
36 rewards >> |
|
37 |
|
38 Pages: [1] [41]Mark unread [42]Send this topic [43]Print |
|
39 |
|
40 Author Topic: GNS and player rewards (Read 1480 times) |
|
41 |
|
42 [44]JMendes [47][IMG] [48]GNS and player rewards |
|
43 Member << on: October 31, 2002, 01:21:08 PM >> |
|
44 |
|
45 Posts: 187 ---------------------------------------------------- |
|
46 |
|
47 [45]View Hi, all, :) |
|
48 Profile |
|
49 [46]Personal Appols if this has been asked and answered (in which |
|
50 Message case check out this thread replies are appreciated). |
|
51 (Offline) |
|
52 Anyway, how does one reward players in the various |
|
53 GNS modes? |
|
54 |
|
55 (Ex. would be: a gamist mode rewards a player by |
|
56 awarding character advancement; or, a gamist mode |
|
57 rewards a player by tallying problems successfully |
|
58 solved, thus allowing said player to bask under the |
|
59 glory of said tally; or something else entirely...) |
|
60 |
|
61 Cheers, |
|
62 |
|
63 J. |
|
64 [49]Logged |
|
65 |
|
66 ---------------------------------------------------- |
|
67 |
|
68 João Mendes |
|
69 Lisbon, Portugal |
|
70 [50]M. J. [59]GNS and player rewards |
|
71 Young [58][IMG] << Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002, |
|
72 Member 06:15:17 PM >> |
|
73 |
|
74 Posts: 2123 -------------------------------------------------- |
|
75 |
|
76 [51]1735114 It's not so cut-and-dried as that, I think. |
|
77 [52]MarkJYoung There's a sense in which the rewards can be almost |
|
78 [53]tiras1 anything and fit any type of play; it's more a |
|
79 [54]View matter of how they're earned than what they |
|
80 Profile are--although yes, there are some rewards that fit |
|
81 [55]WWW some kinds of play better. But maybe I can provide |
|
82 [56]Email an outrageous example. |
|
83 [57]Personal |
|
84 Message Multiverser has no "reward system" at all; there |
|
85 (Offline) is a sense in which nothing is rewarded and |
|
86 nothing is given as a reward. Yet people play it, |
|
87 and find rewards, because the rewards are inherent |
|
88 to the experience. |
|
89 |
|
90 [*]To the Gamist, the ultimate reward is that |
|
91 feeling that you just won, that you beat the |
|
92 odds or overcame the enemy or solved the problem |
|
93 in a significant way. I'm currently playing in a |
|
94 Multiverser game in which I was engaged in a |
|
95 battle of magic (and my character was completely |
|
96 new to magic, making it up as he went along). |
|
97 The attacker fled; the attacker's conjured |
|
98 assassin was driven away. I had beaten the |
|
99 enemy, I had won the conflict. The gamist reward |
|
100 here is phenomenal. |
|
101 [*]To the Simulationist, reward is a lot more |
|
102 subtle. It involves feeling like you've entered |
|
103 another reality, in some sense, that you've |
|
104 explored a possibility and discovered something |
|
105 about it. In that same game world, my background |
|
106 in law convinced the local prince to assign me |
|
107 the rather complex task of organizing his |
|
108 judicial system and creating a legislature as a |
|
109 way to bring his medieval princedom toward a |
|
110 modern democratic citystate. I've spent quite a |
|
111 bit of time figuring out how to organize a dozen |
|
112 judges into a tiered judicial system with an |
|
113 emphasis on precedent, and more on devising a |
|
114 bicameral legislature in which one house |
|
115 represents the fading nobility and the other the |
|
116 mostly illiterate peasantry (how do you arrange |
|
117 elections for representatives when the |
|
118 electorate can't read and write?). I'm watching |
|
119 the world evolve, and I'm involved in the center |
|
120 of it. There is a great reward in being part of |
|
121 something like this. |
|
122 [*]To the Narrativist--well, there are a lot of |
|
123 ways to say it that will lead someone to object |
|
124 to the terminology, but let me suggest that the |
|
125 reward for narrativists is the creation of |
|
126 something of a morality play; that is, we've |
|
127 created a story which is about an issue. In that |
|
128 same world, the man who appointed me his head |
|
129 justice required that I "swear fealty" to him, |
|
130 and I in essence did so: I told him that I |
|
131 didn't promise not to argue with him, but in the |
|
132 end I would recognize he had the right to decide |
|
133 what the law was. But this man has closed all |
|
134 the churches in the princedom. It was his |
|
135 opinion that the religious people were fighting |
|
136 with each other to the detriment of the |
|
137 community, so he made public religious ceremony |
|
138 illegal. My character is very religious; and |
|
139 since he has taken his position he has |
|
140 discovered that one of the major religious |
|
141 groups which have been "shut down" is |
|
142 essentially agreed with his own faith. He is now |
|
143 in a position in which he has sworn obligations |
|
144 to uphold a law that could easily be used to |
|
145 persecute people who share his religious |
|
146 beliefs, which indeed could be used to accuse |
|
147 his self of treason. The tension here is a |
|
148 wonderful narrativist premise, as the character |
|
149 must wrestle with whether he can serve as the |
|
150 chief jurist in a legal system that oppresses |
|
151 his own faith, or whether he can from his |
|
152 position of limited authority make it possible |
|
153 for that faith (and others?) to continue to be |
|
154 practiced and encouraged in the city despite the |
|
155 strictures placed upon it. The reward here comes |
|
156 from resolving those tensions in one direction |
|
157 or another. Narrativist rewards can in some ways |
|
158 be the most interesting. My character could be |
|
159 the deliverer who puts the crack in the wall |
|
160 that ultimately admits the flood, such that the |
|
161 prince is forced to permit faith again to be |
|
162 expressed and practiced openly. He could instead |
|
163 be the martyr whose death galvinizes the people |
|
164 to stand up for their freedom. There are great |
|
165 story possibilities here, and the realization of |
|
166 those story possibilities is itself the |
|
167 reward.[/list:u] |
|
168 |
|
169 Now, there's a lot of talk about how mechanical |
|
170 reward systems can be gamist, narrativist, or |
|
171 simulationist; but what that means ultimately is |
|
172 that the rewards encourage one kind of |
|
173 play--they are given for actions of a particular |
|
174 type, and/or they are in a currency which can be |
|
175 used for actions of a particular type. |
|
176 |
|
177 [*]A character earns experience points for |
|
178 beating the odds, whether that's for killing |
|
179 monsters, solving riddles, capturing enemy |
|
180 spies, disarming explosives, or any other |
|
181 in-game challenge. That experience is then |
|
182 spent to make him better at killing monsters, |
|
183 solving riddles, capturing enemy spies, |
|
184 disarming explosives, or some other in-game |
|
185 challenge. This is a palpably gamist reward |
|
186 system, because rewards are given to |
|
187 reinforce the inherent reward of winning, and |
|
188 are a type which help the character win over |
|
189 greater odds in the future. |
|
190 [*]A player recognizes that his character has |
|
191 values which could easily be brought into |
|
192 conflict. He moves that character into a |
|
193 place where the conflict will be forced upon |
|
194 the character, where he will have to choose |
|
195 between one value and another, and in doing |
|
196 so is given a credit. He may then use the |
|
197 credit to purchase something to add to play |
|
198 that will help resolve this conflict one way |
|
199 or the other, such as bringing another |
|
200 character into the scene, or placing a |
|
201 previously unmentioned object within reach. |
|
202 This is an arguably narrativist reward |
|
203 system, because it gives rewards for the |
|
204 creation of premise-enhancing situations |
|
205 which are of a type which helps the player |
|
206 advance the core of the story. (This is more |
|
207 difficult, as a very similar reward system |
|
208 could be used in a simulationist exploration |
|
209 of character/situation game; it's just the |
|
210 best I could produce at the moment.) |
|
211 [*]A character in a new city takes a job as a |
|
212 stablehand. The player puts effort into |
|
213 describing the life and activities of a |
|
214 stablehand, and his character's feelings |
|
215 about this; he controls the character to be a |
|
216 good stablehand. A tally is kept of the time |
|
217 he spends at this activity, with extra |
|
218 credits for doing it well. When a |
|
219 predetermined score is reached, the owner of |
|
220 the stable approaches the character and |
|
221 offers to promote him to work as a groom. |
|
222 This is arguably a simulationist reward |
|
223 system, as the rewards are given for playing |
|
224 appropriately in the context of the setting |
|
225 and lead to new opportunities to explore |
|
226 other aspects of the setting. |
|
227 [/list:u] |
|
228 There are countless ways to do reward systems |
|
229 for each sort of play. I suspect that the way |
|
230 to get at it, though, is to begin with an |
|
231 idea of how the game works without any reward |
|
232 system at all, to determine what sort of play |
|
233 you want to encourage, and then create a |
|
234 reward system which gives the players |
|
235 currency in response to the sort of actions |
|
236 desired which can be spent to make possible |
|
237 more of that sort of actions. |
|
238 |
|
239 Does that make sense? |
|
240 |
|
241 (And anyone who wants to suggest a better |
|
242 example of a narrativist reward system--or |
|
243 any other--please do so.) |
|
244 |
|
245 --M. J. Young |
|
246 [60]Logged |
|
247 |
|
248 -------------------------------------------------- |
|
249 |
|
250 Check out [61]Multiverser |
|
251 [62]M. J. Young Net |
|
252 [63]Cassidy [67]GNS and player rewards |
|
253 Member [66][IMG] << Reply #2 on: November 02, 2002, |
|
254 11:04:29 AM >> |
|
255 Posts: 165 |
|
256 ---------------------------------------------------- |
|
257 [64]View |
|
258 Profile Quote from: M. J. Young |
|
259 [65]Personal Does that make sense? |
|
260 Message |
|
261 (Offline) Absolutely. |
|
262 |
|
263 For me, the key to rewarding players is essentially |
|
264 knowing what their premise is and making sure that |
|
265 it's fulfilled. |
|
266 |
|
267 I can only relate my own experiences but for players |
|
268 with a narrative slant I very often let them assume |
|
269 the role of significant NPCs in the game. |
|
270 |
|
271 Mercenary Leader, Religious Zealot, Cowardly |
|
272 Nobleman, you name it, I've had them play it. |
|
273 |
|
274 It obviously takes a lot of setting up and |
|
275 discussion one-on-one with the player concerned |
|
276 prior to play which in itself is rewarding for the |
|
277 players concerned. |
|
278 |
|
279 For players coming from a simulationist angle, if |
|
280 the setting, characters, conflicts and situations |
|
281 within the game are engaging enough and really grab |
|
282 their interest then playing becomes it's own reward. |
|
283 |
|
284 The players like that in my group really don't give |
|
285 a hoot about experience points, story points or |
|
286 whatever in fact I never use experience points as |
|
287 such. |
|
288 |
|
289 The odd ad-hoc change in an ability from time to |
|
290 time as a consequence of a characters experiences in |
|
291 the game works well enough. It makes sense to me and |
|
292 more importantly it makes sense to the players. It's |
|
293 never a player initiated thing, it's just something |
|
294 that I mention to the player in passing when I feel |
|
295 the change is warranted. The player modifies their |
|
296 character sheet and thats all there is to it. |
|
297 |
|
298 The problem I have most is satisfying players with a |
|
299 gamist premise. |
|
300 |
|
301 Winning and losing in RPGs is something that I've |
|
302 never been able to get my head around. Maybe it's |
|
303 just my own experience but the players in my group |
|
304 who play the the game from a gamist standpoint only |
|
305 seem to come alive when there is something to hit. |
|
306 |
|
307 They really appear to have little interest in |
|
308 exploring the setting or involving themselves in |
|
309 situations that don't have an element of combat |
|
310 associated to them. |
|
311 |
|
312 The only reward they are interested in is |
|
313 "improvement" of their characters abilities and a |
|
314 desire for more combat in the game. |
|
315 |
|
316 Combat for combat's sake bores me. Unless the |
|
317 characters are in a truly threatening situation and |
|
318 they stand a real chance of dying then it appears to |
|
319 be a real waste of time. I can't do that every |
|
320 session. |
|
321 |
|
322 Conversely, a session without combat is often seen |
|
323 as boring or unrewarding certain players in my |
|
324 group. |
|
325 |
|
326 I do run my games primarily from a |
|
327 simulation/narrative angle and I do introduce combat |
|
328 intensive scenes as a means of presenting the group |
|
329 with a dramatic life or death situation. |
|
330 |
|
331 I just feel that I can't satisfy the players in my |
|
332 group who play from an apparently gamist standpoint |
|
333 because I think the type of game they want to play |
|
334 isn't really the type of game I want to run. |
|
335 [68]Logged |
|
336 [69]MK [73]GNS and player rewards |
|
337 Snyder [72][IMG] << Reply #3 on: November 02, 2002, |
|
338 Member 07:32:32 PM >> |
|
339 |
|
340 Posts: 116 ---------------------------------------------------- |
|
341 |
|
342 [70]View I think that given an awareness of what style of |
|
343 Profile play is most satisfying to the player, and having |
|
344 [71]Personal the play tailored to that style by the GM or group |
|
345 Message or at least respectfully ackowledged as a desire and |
|
346 (Offline) given a share of the session form and focus (turns), |
|
347 that players are rewarded by play itself. |
|
348 |
|
349 Conflict and frustration are lessened as players are |
|
350 not attempting to force/encourage one another into |
|
351 playing to misunderstood and possibly conflicting |
|
352 standards. |
|
353 |
|
354 It enhances the process of play. Mechanical/ design |
|
355 changes may not be necessary. |
|
356 |
|
357 In other words... if the players are having more fun |
|
358 because what they like to happen is happening, they |
|
359 don't need no steenkin XP's to sweeten it. |
|
360 [74]Logged |
|
361 |
|
362 Pages: [1] [75]Mark unread [76]Send this topic [77]Print |
|
363 |
|
364 [78]<< previous [79]next >> |
|
365 |
|
366 Jump to: [[80]_______________________________] [81][ go ] |
|
367 |
|
368 The Forge | Powered by [84]SMF |
|
369 [82]Powered by 1.0.5. [87]Valid XHTML |
|
370 MySQL [83]Powered (c) 2001-2005, [85]Lewis 1.0! [88]Valid CSS! |
|
371 by PHP Media. All Rights Reserved. |
|
372 Oxygen design by [86]Bloc |
|
373 |
|
374 References |
|
375 |
|
376 Visible links |
|
377 1. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=help |
|
378 2. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=search |
|
379 3. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php |
|
380 4. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=;topic=4075.0;prev_next=prev |
|
381 5. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=;topic=4075.0;prev_next=next |
|
382 6. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=;board=3.0 |
|
383 7. file:///about/ |
|
384 8. file:///articles/ |
|
385 9. file:///forum/ |
|
386 10. file:///reviews/ |
|
387 11. file:///resources/ |
|
388 13. Shrink or expand the header. |
|
389 file:///home/fabien/data/projets/jdr/harmonies/work/ecjdr/draft/gns_and_players_rewards.html# |
|
390 14. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php |
|
391 15. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=help |
|
392 16. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=search |
|
393 17. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile |
|
394 18. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=logout;sesc=ba7ce42c5272df7403fe662c9966e33f |
|
395 19. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm |
|
396 20. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=unread |
|
397 21. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=unreadreplies |
|
398 24. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced |
|
399 25. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6016 |
|
400 27. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php |
|
401 30. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php#1 |
|
402 34. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0 |
|
403 38. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.0 |
|
404 39. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.0;prev_next=prev |
|
405 40. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075;prev_next=next |
|
406 41. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=markasread;sa=topic;topic=4075.0 |
|
407 42. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=sendtopic;topic=4075.0 |
|
408 43. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4075.0 |
|
409 44. View the profile of JMendes |
|
410 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=842 |
|
411 45. View Profile |
|
412 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=842 |
|
413 46. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=842 |
|
414 47. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39610#msg39610 |
|
415 48. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39610#msg39610 |
|
416 49. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip |
|
417 50. View the profile of M. J. Young |
|
418 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712 |
|
419 51. http://web.icq.com/whitepages/about_me/1,,,00.html?Uin=1735114 |
|
420 52. file:///home/fabien/data/projets/jdr/harmonies/work/ecjdr/draft/aim:goim?screenname=MarkJYoung&message=Hi.+Are+you+there? |
|
421 53. http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=tiras1 |
|
422 54. View Profile |
|
423 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712 |
|
424 55. http://www.mjyoung.net/ |
|
425 56. Email |
|
426 mailto:mjyoung@mjyoung.net |
|
427 57. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=712 |
|
428 58. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39639#msg39639 |
|
429 59. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39639#msg39639 |
|
430 60. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip |
|
431 61. http://www.mjyoung.net/publish/ |
|
432 62. http://www.mjyoung.net/ |
|
433 63. View the profile of Cassidy |
|
434 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=948 |
|
435 64. View Profile |
|
436 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=948 |
|
437 65. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=948 |
|
438 66. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39947#msg39947 |
|
439 67. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39947#msg39947 |
|
440 68. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip |
|
441 69. View the profile of MK Snyder |
|
442 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=941 |
|
443 70. View Profile |
|
444 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=941 |
|
445 71. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=941 |
|
446 72. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39997#msg39997 |
|
447 73. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.msg39997#msg39997 |
|
448 74. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip |
|
449 75. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=markasread;sa=topic;topic=4075.0 |
|
450 76. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=sendtopic;topic=4075.0 |
|
451 77. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4075.0 |
|
452 78. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075.0;prev_next=prev |
|
453 79. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=4075;prev_next=next |
|
454 82. http://www.mysql.com/ |
|
455 83. http://www.php.net/ |
|
456 84. Simple Machines Forum |
|
457 http://www.simplemachines.org/ |
|
458 85. http://www.lewismedia.com/ |
|
459 86. http://www.bloczone.net/ |
|
460 87. http://validator.w3.org/check/referer |
|
461 88. http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer |