diff -r 3164c82ac16e -r bdef1afd1170 draft/gns_and_players_rewards.txt --- /dev/null Thu Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 +0000 +++ b/draft/gns_and_players_rewards.txt Wed Aug 30 21:32:44 2006 -0400 @@ -0,0 +1,461 @@ + Link: [1]help + Link: [2]search + Link: [3]contents + Link: [4]previous + Link: [5]next + Link: [6]index + + [7]About the Forge | [8]Articles | [9]Forum | [10]Reviews | [12]* + [11]Resource Library + [13]* + [14]Home + [15]Help + [16]Search + [17]Edit Profile + [18]Logout + Hey, fabien, you have [19]0 Forum changes: Editing of posts + messages, 0 are new. has been turned off until + Total time logged in: 30 minutes. further notice. + [20]Show unread posts since last + visit. + [21]Show new replies to your + posts. + February 21, 2006, 06:02:54 AM + + Search: [22]_____________________ [23][ Search ] [24]Advanced + search + + 196611 Posts in 18462 Topics by Most online today: 102 - most online + 5889 Members Latest Member: - ever: 143 (January 24, 2006, + [25]argology 05:56:13 AM) + + [26]+ [27]The Forge + [28]|-[29]+ [30]General Forge Forums + [31]| [32]|-[33]+ [34]GNS Model Discussion + [35]| | [36]|-[37]+ [38]GNS and player [39]<< previous [40]next + rewards >> + + Pages: [1] [41]Mark unread [42]Send this topic [43]Print + + Author Topic: GNS and player rewards (Read 1480 times) + + [44]JMendes [47][IMG] [48]GNS and player rewards + Member << on: October 31, 2002, 01:21:08 PM >> + + Posts: 187 ---------------------------------------------------- + + [45]View Hi, all, :) + Profile + [46]Personal Appols if this has been asked and answered (in which + Message case check out this thread replies are appreciated). + (Offline) + Anyway, how does one reward players in the various + GNS modes? + + (Ex. would be: a gamist mode rewards a player by + awarding character advancement; or, a gamist mode + rewards a player by tallying problems successfully + solved, thus allowing said player to bask under the + glory of said tally; or something else entirely...) + + Cheers, + + J. + [49]Logged + + ---------------------------------------------------- + + João Mendes + Lisbon, Portugal + [50]M. J. [59]GNS and player rewards + Young [58][IMG] << Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002, + Member 06:15:17 PM >> + + Posts: 2123 -------------------------------------------------- + + [51]1735114 It's not so cut-and-dried as that, I think. + [52]MarkJYoung There's a sense in which the rewards can be almost + [53]tiras1 anything and fit any type of play; it's more a + [54]View matter of how they're earned than what they + Profile are--although yes, there are some rewards that fit + [55]WWW some kinds of play better. But maybe I can provide + [56]Email an outrageous example. + [57]Personal + Message Multiverser has no "reward system" at all; there + (Offline) is a sense in which nothing is rewarded and + nothing is given as a reward. Yet people play it, + and find rewards, because the rewards are inherent + to the experience. + + [*]To the Gamist, the ultimate reward is that + feeling that you just won, that you beat the + odds or overcame the enemy or solved the problem + in a significant way. I'm currently playing in a + Multiverser game in which I was engaged in a + battle of magic (and my character was completely + new to magic, making it up as he went along). + The attacker fled; the attacker's conjured + assassin was driven away. I had beaten the + enemy, I had won the conflict. The gamist reward + here is phenomenal. + [*]To the Simulationist, reward is a lot more + subtle. It involves feeling like you've entered + another reality, in some sense, that you've + explored a possibility and discovered something + about it. In that same game world, my background + in law convinced the local prince to assign me + the rather complex task of organizing his + judicial system and creating a legislature as a + way to bring his medieval princedom toward a + modern democratic citystate. I've spent quite a + bit of time figuring out how to organize a dozen + judges into a tiered judicial system with an + emphasis on precedent, and more on devising a + bicameral legislature in which one house + represents the fading nobility and the other the + mostly illiterate peasantry (how do you arrange + elections for representatives when the + electorate can't read and write?). I'm watching + the world evolve, and I'm involved in the center + of it. There is a great reward in being part of + something like this. + [*]To the Narrativist--well, there are a lot of + ways to say it that will lead someone to object + to the terminology, but let me suggest that the + reward for narrativists is the creation of + something of a morality play; that is, we've + created a story which is about an issue. In that + same world, the man who appointed me his head + justice required that I "swear fealty" to him, + and I in essence did so: I told him that I + didn't promise not to argue with him, but in the + end I would recognize he had the right to decide + what the law was. But this man has closed all + the churches in the princedom. It was his + opinion that the religious people were fighting + with each other to the detriment of the + community, so he made public religious ceremony + illegal. My character is very religious; and + since he has taken his position he has + discovered that one of the major religious + groups which have been "shut down" is + essentially agreed with his own faith. He is now + in a position in which he has sworn obligations + to uphold a law that could easily be used to + persecute people who share his religious + beliefs, which indeed could be used to accuse + his self of treason. The tension here is a + wonderful narrativist premise, as the character + must wrestle with whether he can serve as the + chief jurist in a legal system that oppresses + his own faith, or whether he can from his + position of limited authority make it possible + for that faith (and others?) to continue to be + practiced and encouraged in the city despite the + strictures placed upon it. The reward here comes + from resolving those tensions in one direction + or another. Narrativist rewards can in some ways + be the most interesting. My character could be + the deliverer who puts the crack in the wall + that ultimately admits the flood, such that the + prince is forced to permit faith again to be + expressed and practiced openly. He could instead + be the martyr whose death galvinizes the people + to stand up for their freedom. There are great + story possibilities here, and the realization of + those story possibilities is itself the + reward.[/list:u] + + Now, there's a lot of talk about how mechanical + reward systems can be gamist, narrativist, or + simulationist; but what that means ultimately is + that the rewards encourage one kind of + play--they are given for actions of a particular + type, and/or they are in a currency which can be + used for actions of a particular type. + + [*]A character earns experience points for + beating the odds, whether that's for killing + monsters, solving riddles, capturing enemy + spies, disarming explosives, or any other + in-game challenge. That experience is then + spent to make him better at killing monsters, + solving riddles, capturing enemy spies, + disarming explosives, or some other in-game + challenge. This is a palpably gamist reward + system, because rewards are given to + reinforce the inherent reward of winning, and + are a type which help the character win over + greater odds in the future. + [*]A player recognizes that his character has + values which could easily be brought into + conflict. He moves that character into a + place where the conflict will be forced upon + the character, where he will have to choose + between one value and another, and in doing + so is given a credit. He may then use the + credit to purchase something to add to play + that will help resolve this conflict one way + or the other, such as bringing another + character into the scene, or placing a + previously unmentioned object within reach. + This is an arguably narrativist reward + system, because it gives rewards for the + creation of premise-enhancing situations + which are of a type which helps the player + advance the core of the story. (This is more + difficult, as a very similar reward system + could be used in a simulationist exploration + of character/situation game; it's just the + best I could produce at the moment.) + [*]A character in a new city takes a job as a + stablehand. The player puts effort into + describing the life and activities of a + stablehand, and his character's feelings + about this; he controls the character to be a + good stablehand. A tally is kept of the time + he spends at this activity, with extra + credits for doing it well. When a + predetermined score is reached, the owner of + the stable approaches the character and + offers to promote him to work as a groom. + This is arguably a simulationist reward + system, as the rewards are given for playing + appropriately in the context of the setting + and lead to new opportunities to explore + other aspects of the setting. + [/list:u] + There are countless ways to do reward systems + for each sort of play. I suspect that the way + to get at it, though, is to begin with an + idea of how the game works without any reward + system at all, to determine what sort of play + you want to encourage, and then create a + reward system which gives the players + currency in response to the sort of actions + desired which can be spent to make possible + more of that sort of actions. + + Does that make sense? + + (And anyone who wants to suggest a better + example of a narrativist reward system--or + any other--please do so.) + + --M. J. Young + [60]Logged + + -------------------------------------------------- + + Check out [61]Multiverser + [62]M. J. Young Net + [63]Cassidy [67]GNS and player rewards + Member [66][IMG] << Reply #2 on: November 02, 2002, + 11:04:29 AM >> + Posts: 165 + ---------------------------------------------------- + [64]View + Profile Quote from: M. J. Young + [65]Personal Does that make sense? + Message + (Offline) Absolutely. + + For me, the key to rewarding players is essentially + knowing what their premise is and making sure that + it's fulfilled. + + I can only relate my own experiences but for players + with a narrative slant I very often let them assume + the role of significant NPCs in the game. + + Mercenary Leader, Religious Zealot, Cowardly + Nobleman, you name it, I've had them play it. + + It obviously takes a lot of setting up and + discussion one-on-one with the player concerned + prior to play which in itself is rewarding for the + players concerned. + + For players coming from a simulationist angle, if + the setting, characters, conflicts and situations + within the game are engaging enough and really grab + their interest then playing becomes it's own reward. + + The players like that in my group really don't give + a hoot about experience points, story points or + whatever in fact I never use experience points as + such. + + The odd ad-hoc change in an ability from time to + time as a consequence of a characters experiences in + the game works well enough. It makes sense to me and + more importantly it makes sense to the players. It's + never a player initiated thing, it's just something + that I mention to the player in passing when I feel + the change is warranted. The player modifies their + character sheet and thats all there is to it. + + The problem I have most is satisfying players with a + gamist premise. + + Winning and losing in RPGs is something that I've + never been able to get my head around. Maybe it's + just my own experience but the players in my group + who play the the game from a gamist standpoint only + seem to come alive when there is something to hit. + + They really appear to have little interest in + exploring the setting or involving themselves in + situations that don't have an element of combat + associated to them. + + The only reward they are interested in is + "improvement" of their characters abilities and a + desire for more combat in the game. + + Combat for combat's sake bores me. Unless the + characters are in a truly threatening situation and + they stand a real chance of dying then it appears to + be a real waste of time. I can't do that every + session. + + Conversely, a session without combat is often seen + as boring or unrewarding certain players in my + group. + + I do run my games primarily from a + simulation/narrative angle and I do introduce combat + intensive scenes as a means of presenting the group + with a dramatic life or death situation. + + I just feel that I can't satisfy the players in my + group who play from an apparently gamist standpoint + because I think the type of game they want to play + isn't really the type of game I want to run. + [68]Logged + [69]MK [73]GNS and player rewards + Snyder [72][IMG] << Reply #3 on: November 02, 2002, + Member 07:32:32 PM >> + + Posts: 116 ---------------------------------------------------- + + [70]View I think that given an awareness of what style of + Profile play is most satisfying to the player, and having + [71]Personal the play tailored to that style by the GM or group + Message or at least respectfully ackowledged as a desire and + (Offline) given a share of the session form and focus (turns), + that players are rewarded by play itself. + + Conflict and frustration are lessened as players are + not attempting to force/encourage one another into + playing to misunderstood and possibly conflicting + standards. + + It enhances the process of play. Mechanical/ design + changes may not be necessary. + + In other words... if the players are having more fun + because what they like to happen is happening, they + don't need no steenkin XP's to sweeten it. + [74]Logged + + Pages: [1] [75]Mark unread [76]Send this topic [77]Print + + [78]<< previous [79]next >> + + Jump to: [[80]_______________________________] [81][ go ] + + The Forge | Powered by [84]SMF + [82]Powered by 1.0.5. [87]Valid XHTML + MySQL [83]Powered (c) 2001-2005, [85]Lewis 1.0! [88]Valid CSS! + by PHP Media. 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