--- /dev/null Thu Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 +0000
+++ b/draft/scatter-3.txt Wed Aug 30 21:32:44 2006 -0400
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+| | |-+ *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
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+
+Author Topic: Part III: Being the Difference Between Players &
+Gamemasters (Read 1163 times)
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10124#msg10124>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10124#msg10124>*
+« * on:* December 27, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+December 30th, 2001 -
+
+At the behest of my friends here on the Forge, I will present
+Scattershot at the point I have it. Even though this is a
+work-in-progress, I am not trying to present a diary of the progress.
+ Expect the lead component of this thread to undergo changes as
+Scattershot does. This edition was originally put together on Thursday,
+December 27th, 2001. This series of articles will detail strictly the
+mechanics of Scattershot, articles relating to the techniques of 'how to
+play' will have to wait until I have more of them centralized and
+organized. The third major component of the game, the setting and genre
+material is will be addressed once I get a new batch of playtesters.
+
+In this installment, I am going to discuss how Scattershot initially
+treats the difference between gamemasters and players. This is not
+because the differences are important to stress, but in the light of how
+much overlap there /can/ be, the difference exposes some of the latitude
+that the game mechanic must address. One of the primary concerns of
+Scattershot is to treat gamemaster and player alike, because their roles
+will blur more and more as people get beyond this traditional model.
+
+Once again this latitude allows people who play Scattershot to 'find
+their own level,' either by trial and error or by informed choice
+(hopefully the technique section of Scattershot can help there).
+ Ultimately this is about finding a balance between the extremes. Here
+are some of the more important extremes as demostrated by the
+differences between how Scattershot affords players and gamemasters in
+the 'thumbnail of gaming' chapter.
+
+Character Creation:
+
+ In keeping with the 'emotional attachment' that is a result of a
+ more detailed character creation system (as described in both the
+ first regular installment of the [SCATTERSHOT:] articles
+ <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>
+ and this article
+ <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=457&forum=4>),
+ players create characters /for themselves/.[/list:u]
+ Gamemasters, on the other hand, mostly create characters
+ /for everyone's/ collective enjoyment.[/list:u]Play:
+
+ Because it makes little sense to have a game that is
+ not /for/ the players (being the bulk of the
+ participants) and in keeping with the sharing
+ principal
+ <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>
+ I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play
+ forward. While events in the game should not wait for
+ player character action, the game /should/ obligate
+ the player characters to some kind of action. (Who
+ wants to play inertia?)[/list:u]
+ In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do
+ what they can to facilitate play. This is one
+ of the main reasons they traditionally create
+ characters, for the facilitation of
+ play.[/list:u]'Flow of Play' issues, like
+ pacing, scale, and scope:
+
+ Players /can/ affect these.[/list:u]
+ Gamemasters /must/ according to
+ tradition.[/list:u]Using the
+ mechanics during play:
+
+ Players can invoke them
+ whenever they feel a need for
+ them.[/list:u]
+ Gamemasters are then
+ expected to arbitrate.
+ Because of the
+ impartiality issues I
+ described earlier
+ <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>,
+ it is important for
+ gamemasters to only
+ arbitrate in a fashion
+ that is 'fair' but also
+ open under these
+ mechanics. For this
+ reason Scattershot is
+ designed (counter to the
+ traditional model) to
+ allow anyone to
+ arbitrate, not just the
+ gamemaster.[/list:u]I
+ guess on some level this
+ describes mechanics as
+ the tool of the player
+ which is then the
+ responsibility of the
+ gamemaster. In most
+ traditional instances I
+ know, in the application
+ of the mechanics, the
+ gamemaster mostly only
+ responds to these (and
+ is the only respondant);
+ this is an unfortunate
+ balance (that we feel
+ needs to be changed).
+ Scattershot's mechanics
+ are meant to be a tool
+ for everyone and should
+ allow anyone to
+ arbitrate, because of
+ the overlap in all
+ roles. However,
+ ultimately, when an
+ irreconcilable
+ inter-participant
+ conflict exists within
+ the playing group, only
+ then does Scattershot
+ have the gamemaster be
+ the final arbiter.
+
+ Next up, where and when
+ are mechanics used or
+ needed.
+
+ Fang Langford
+
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*Ron Edwards
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*
+Global Moderator
+Member
+*
+Posts: 12610
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW
+<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10128#msg10128>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10128#msg10128>*
+« *Reply #1 on:* December 27, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Hey,
+
+It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if
+/everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player
+responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those
+assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways.
+
+My writing of Sorcerer ('89 in the barest beginning stages; '94-96 in
+the nuts & bolts stages, '96-98 for the playtesting stages) shows
+horrible scar tissue and baseball-type stitches about this issue. There
+are still patches of prose that I didn't catch prior to book-printing,
+in which the term "GM" should really be replaced with "the group," or
+"GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides." I
+assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding
+ideologue of the group, and now I think differently.
+
+Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so
+much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player
+roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think
+there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits
+a variety of Transitional outcomes?
+
+Best,
+Ron
+ Logged
+
+*joshua neff
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 844
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW
+<http://www.goblin-cartoons.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10140#msg10140>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10140#msg10140>*
+« *Reply #2 on:* December 27, 2001, 03:26:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+Because it makes little sense to have a game that is not for the players
+(being the bulk of the participants) and in keeping with the sharing
+principal I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play
+forward. While events in the game should not wait for player character
+action, the game should obligate the player characters to some kind of
+action. (Who wants to play inertia?)
+
+
+Amen, brother!
+
+Quote
+In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do what they can to
+facilitate play.
+
+
+Thank you thank you thank you for using the word "facilitate". As Ron
+has heard me rant many a time, I also think the GM's primary role is
+that of facilitator. (For example, in narrativist play, the GM is not
+the "storyteller". S/he is the facilitator of the players being
+"storytellers".) (Side note: I think this extends to other areas as
+well. I think a teacher's role is to facilitate students educating
+themselves, a librarian's role is to facilitate patrons finding
+information, an artist's role is to facilitate everybody creating art,
+ad nauseum.)
+
+I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of
+a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody
+being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions.
+
+You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang.
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+--josh
+
+"You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10158#msg10158>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10158#msg10158>*
+« *Reply #3 on:* December 27, 2001, 09:45:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+Ron Edwards wrote:
+
+It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if
+/everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player
+responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those
+assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways.
+
+That's why I thought it needed to be spelled out concretely. Another of
+Scattershot's design objectives was that, while being organized for
+beginners to grasp, it had to also have a thing or two to tell
+experienced gamers. I thought one of the best things I could do was to
+at least provide explicit roles for gamemasters and players up front,
+with some discussion on how these both overlap and can have their
+responsibilities shifted to the other party. This provides grist for
+the experienced gamer mill to grind out some new understandings for
+themselves. (The trick will be to not 'talk under' or 'talk over'
+anyone's heads, simultaneously.)
+
+Quote
+...or "GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides."
+I assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding
+ideologue of the group, and now I think differently.
+
+Agreed. I also think that ultimate decisions should be held to a group
+decision because of the aforementioned 'sharing principal.' I put the
+gamemaster up as final authority because, 1 is an odd number (which
+avoids deadlocks), and a single person often acts faster than a
+committee when it comes to tough decisions (preserving 'flow of play' as
+I mentioned over in the earlier article
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2>).
+
+Quote
+Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so
+much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player
+roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think
+there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits
+a variety of Transitional outcomes?
+
+I believe I have already mentioned that one of Scattershot's design
+specifications is that it is meant to be 'familiar' to experienced
+gamers (though I cannot find the reference). This means we /must/ use
+terms like hit points, gamemaster, and so on. In our case that also
+means we give the terms 'gamemaster' and 'player' and the descriptions
+above /as a starting point/. I would have gone into the details of the
+techniques that allow Transition away from traditional models for these
+'roles at the table,' but I only posted this as underpinning for
+upcoming installments (as I said, these show the /extremes/ that can be
+had).
+
+And yes, I do think there is a "stable way" to set these up. If you
+remember back to when I posted Scattershot's chapter layout
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=673&forum=2>, you
+can see that the basic premise of what players and gamemasters are is
+layed out quite early. When the text comes back to these issues, a
+reader will be expected to have a handle on how these work in the
+traditional sense. Based on that, in terms of describing the
+techniques, we can work from /there/ (but only if we are /very careful/
+how we depict these roles in the first place).
+
+Fang Langford
+
+[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 00:47 ]
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10161#msg10161>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10161#msg10161>*
+« *Reply #4 on:* December 27, 2001, 10:41:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+joshua neff wrote:
+
+Quote
+Fang wrote:
+
+Gamemasters must therefore do what they can to facilitate play.
+
+Thank you for using the word "facilitate". I also think the GM's primary
+role is that of facilitator. [Snip.]
+
+I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of
+a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody
+being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions.
+
+Role-playing games, in my opinion, certainly do not need gamemasters.
+ In fact, I tend to think of gamemasterless play as an unreachable
+ideal. On a practical level, there are a number of things a gamemaster
+is most ideally suited to handling (at least when no one else is
+interested). Aside from the relative ease their role makes for them to
+portray the hundreds of extras that populate a game, I think I rather
+clearly designated the remainder of their traditional duties back in
+this article
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=993&forum=14> about
+Scattershot's live-action techniques.
+
+Simply listed, they were: referee of /player/ disputes, the game's
+originator (or at least the codifier), facilitator of play (keeping up
+the 'flow of play,' steering relevance, and et cetera), facilities
+arrangement (though this is most often delegated, if the gamemaster, in
+all these other roles, does not make it, the game doesn't happen), and
+finally handling 'membership' (surprise characters can be very
+disruptive, running against facilitation).
+
+There is one role 'hidden' within being the 'facilitator of play;' that
+is being the 'head' of the game. In large corporations (and in the US
+government for that matter), at some point there is a sole individual
+who is charged with orchestrating the actions of the unit whole (most
+often outwardly). This serves how the group survives as its own entity.
+
+Now I am not talking about a dictatorship here; rare is the company
+where the CEO makes changes that take the whole by surprise, but even
+though advised and 'checked and balanced' there is nothing that beats
+the efficacy and quick reactions (when needed) of a single individual.
+
+The number one, main reason I gave this topic its own article is because
+I have to agree that it does require a good deal of discussion, and I
+for one, did not want the totality of Scattershot's mechanics to hide
+this potential for discussion.
+
+Quote
+You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang.
+
+Thank you, I appreciate the input. The number two reason I segregated
+this topic was that I am not convinced that I have the whole of it yet.
+ I look forward to what becomes of each of the component articles in the
+[SCATTERSHOT:] series.
+
+Fang Langford
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*joshua neff
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 844
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW
+<http://www.goblin-cartoons.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10177#msg10177>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10177#msg10177>*
+« *Reply #5 on:* December 28, 2001, 07:04:00 AM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang--
+
+While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of
+players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM
+to guide them all (*ahem*). I think GM-less play (which is really
+"everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a completely feasible option, & one which
+shouldn't be discounted. I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to
+be a GM" is a basic mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover
+from playing in dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows,I've been in
+enough gaming groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of
+authority. But I've also been in groups in which consensus was the rule,
+not the exception.
+
+I would love to see more RPGs which promoted & facilitated something
+other than the "one GM" concept. (& despite my own preferences, I'd love
+to play more "everyone's a GM" games.)
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+--josh
+
+"You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes
+
+*mahoux <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=129>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 119
+
+
+View Profile
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+<http://home.earthlink.net/~knahoux>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10209#msg10209>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10209#msg10209>*
+« *Reply #6 on:* December 28, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Josh-
+I am currently writing a turn-based RPG where there is no GM, but the
+"non-active" players play all the NPCs and help drive the action,
+basically a reverse RPG.
+
+Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02.
+
+But that's neither here nor there to the thread. My own idea is that
+everyone needs to work together to drive the story, or else just have
+the GM read to you all from the Chronicles of Narnia or something.
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Taking the & out of AD&D
+
+http://home.earthlink.net/~knahoux/KOTR_2.html <"<a>">Knights of the
+Road, Knights of the Rail has hit the rails!
+
+*lumpley <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=119>*
+Acts of Evil Playtesters
+Member
+*
+Posts: 2091
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+
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+<http://www.lumpley.com/>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10227#msg10227>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10227#msg10227>*
+« *Reply #7 on:* December 28, 2001, 10:53:00 AM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+At the risk of contributing to thread-hijack, the Ars Magica game I play
+is fully co-GMed. Such a thing is entirely possible and, let me tell
+you, big big fun.
+
+At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too. (By which I
+mean for mechanics we use the 'mechanics' that drive any shared creative
+process: discussion, debate, as much clarity as possible, willingness to
+compromise, and just generally all caring about the game.)
+
+If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal,
+day-to-day consensus that makes roleplaying happen breaks down -- and if
+you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them. But boyo
+that's me being pedantic. I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks
+like a great game so far.
+
+-lumpley Vincent
+ Logged
+
+*Laurel <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=216>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 243
+
+
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+<http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/white_wolf_games>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10243#msg10243>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10243#msg10243>*
+« *Reply #8 on:* December 28, 2001, 01:31:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment.
+ It tackled a really tricky issue.
+
+One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be
+is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and
+personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not
+going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining
+the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of
+play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer,
+consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage
+participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal.
+
+Laurel
+ Logged
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
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+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10268#msg10268>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10268#msg10268>*
+« *Reply #9 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+joshua neff wrote:
+
+While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of
+players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM
+to guide them all (*ahem*).
+
+Same here. The reasons I created these breakdowns was to have a
+starting point towards explaining how to do things differently.
+
+Quote
+I think GM-less play (which is really "everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a
+completely feasible option, & one which shouldn't be discounted.
+
+I don't mean to discount it, but considering how important I think the
+emotional attachment to a game /through/ their characters is for the
+players, I find it an extremely sophisticated form of play to switch
+between 'player' and 'gamemaster' as frequently as a "gamemaster-filled"
+game requires. Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I
+have very little room to address this kind of play in the core products.
+
+On the other hand, if you read through the link I gave above, you can
+see that I have gone to great lengths to create techniques that allows a
+live-action Scattershot game to be essentially 'gamemaster-free' game.
+
+Quote
+I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to be a GM" is a basic
+mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover from playing in
+dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows, I've been in enough gaming
+groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of authority. But I've
+also been in groups in which consensus was the rule, not the exception.
+
+Actually, the 'sharing' of any game (or game-world) underscores the
+actually high level of consensus that already exists in gaming. I never
+meant to depreciate the value of decision-by-consensus, but I felt that
+in some cases it can be more important to have a speedy decision (like
+can be had by a single gamemaster) than one subject to debate as can be
+sometimes necessary with consensus.
+
+Scattershot's playing techniques describe a general use of consensus
+throughout, but has the group place its consensual 'power' in the
+gamemaster for those times when time is more important than discussion
+(just like a representative democracy).
+
+Fang Langford
+
+[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 20:08 ]
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10269#msg10269>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10269#msg10269>*
+« *Reply #10 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+Mahoux wrote:
+
+I am currently writing a turn-based RPG...
+[Snip.]
+Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02.
+
+Wow!?! Next week! I wish I was that fast.
+
+Fang Langford
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*joshua neff
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 844
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW
+<http://www.goblin-cartoons.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10272#msg10272>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10272#msg10272>*
+« *Reply #11 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I have very little
+room to address this kind of play in the core products.
+
+
+Oh, I understand. I just felt the need, as I often do, to start looking
+at alternatives. I think you're right to put forth the (for lack of a
+better word) traditional way of playing.
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+--josh
+
+"You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10273#msg10273>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10273#msg10273>*
+« *Reply #12 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+lumpley wrote:
+
+At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too.
+
+This matches what I described in [SCATTERSHOT:] Whence go the Mechanics
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1087&forum=2&0> as
+General play. (If you want to go back and look at it.)
+
+Quote
+If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal,
+day-to-day consensus that makes role-playing happen, breaks down -- and
+if you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them.
+
+Exactly the point I am making. But beginners cannot be expected to be
+sophisticated enough to play this way on the first go. Since
+Scattershot is for beginners as well as experienced players, I need to
+set down a 'starting point' to describe these sorts of things.
+
+Quote
+I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks like a great game so far.
+
+Thank you very much, I cannot say how well I appreciate the compliments
+(words fail). I hope to hear more of what you think as the remainder is
+posted.
+
+Fang Langford
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*joshua neff
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 844
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW
+<http://www.goblin-cartoons.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10274#msg10274>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10274#msg10274>*
+« *Reply #13 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+You know, something's been niggling at me, & I think I just nailed what
+it is.
+
+Fang, you've referred to "GM-less"/"everyone's-a-GM" play as
+"sophisticated", & that Scattershot, as primarily for beginners,
+shouldn't expect people to be able to easily achieve this level of play.
+
+Here's the thing. I don't think it's sophisticated. Not any more than
+"traditional" RPG play.
+
+When I was in grade school, my friends & I played Superheroes everyday
+on the playground. We spun long, elaborate narratives over the course of
+the school year. Villains died & returned, heroes were faced with
+conflict, & dumb fart jokes were made. There was no GM, all decisions
+were made essentially by consensus. I don't think what we were doing was
+any more sophisticated than playing /D&D/ with one GM making decisions
+(in the style of, as you said, a representative democracy).
+
+I guess I feel like you're not giving beginners enough credit.
+Especially considering they haven't had the dysfunctional RPG
+experiences a lot of us old timers have had. I think beginners could
+quite possibly handle a myriad of RPG styles easily. Which is not to say
+that the way you're going about Scattershot is wrong by any stretch of
+the imagination. You've obviously put a LOT of thought into this, & so
+far it looks really good.
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+--josh
+
+"You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes
+
+*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*
+Member
+
+Posts: 1363
+
+
+View Profile
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW
+<http://www.scattershotgames.com>
+
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10275#msg10275>
+*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
+<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10275#msg10275>*
+« *Reply #14 on:* December 28, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
+
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Quote
+Laurel wrote:
+
+First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment.
+ It tackled a really tricky issue.
+
+One that I have felt for some time has needed to be 'outed.' I am not
+comfortable saying that I 'have it,' but I think I have at least
+conceived of a good 'starting point.'
+
+Quote
+One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be
+is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and
+personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not
+going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining
+the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of
+play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer,
+consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage
+participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal.
+
+Actually no. What I described was not that close to my ideal. As I
+have stated elsewhere, we chose to have Scattershot be accessible to as
+much of the audience of experienced gamers as possible. In keeping with
+that, I created the above descriptions of what I consider the functional
+traditional set-up.
+
+My actual perspective is that 'flow of play' is more important than what
+are the specific duties or rights of either players or gamemasters. I
+established the above relationships only as a starting point.
+ (Actually, I listed the above traditional relationships so as to show
+some of the extremes that the features I delved into could reach.)
+
+In the techniques given in Scattershot, we deal with these roles (and
+variations on them) in much more detail. Since, in this series of
+articles, I am only dealing with the mechanical portion of Scattershot,
+I only brought these up only to suggest some of the different types of
+emotional investments that can be had (at least traditionally) and how
+they relate the actual issues I was discussing.
+
+Thank you for your insightful commentary. It goes a long way towards
+suggesting the totality of the realms of player-gamemaster
+relationships. (Which I hope to comment on some day when I delve into
+the techniques of Scattershot, right now I have my hands full detailing
+the mechanics though.)
+
+Fang Langford
+ Logged
+
+------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing
+Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have
+any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he
+can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
+<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
+
+*Pages:* [*1*] 2
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