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26 *198794* Posts in *18708* Topics by *5988* Members Latest Member: * - |
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34 | |-+ *Scattershot <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?board=22.0>* |
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35 | | |-+ *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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36 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.0>* « previous |
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37 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.0;prev_next=prev> |
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38 next » |
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39 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080;prev_next=next> |
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40 |
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41 *Pages:* [*1*] 2 |
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42 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.15> 3 |
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43 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.30> Print |
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44 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1080.0> |
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45 |
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46 Author Topic: Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & |
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47 Gamemasters (Read 1163 times) |
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48 |
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49 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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50 Member |
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51 |
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52 Posts: 1363 |
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53 |
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54 |
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55 View Profile |
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56 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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57 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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58 |
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59 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10124#msg10124> |
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60 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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61 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10124#msg10124>* |
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62 « * on:* December 27, 2001, 02:10:00 PM » |
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63 |
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64 |
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65 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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66 December 30th, 2001 - |
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67 |
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68 At the behest of my friends here on the Forge, I will present |
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69 Scattershot at the point I have it. Even though this is a |
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70 work-in-progress, I am not trying to present a diary of the progress. |
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71 Expect the lead component of this thread to undergo changes as |
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72 Scattershot does. This edition was originally put together on Thursday, |
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73 December 27th, 2001. This series of articles will detail strictly the |
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74 mechanics of Scattershot, articles relating to the techniques of 'how to |
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75 play' will have to wait until I have more of them centralized and |
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76 organized. The third major component of the game, the setting and genre |
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77 material is will be addressed once I get a new batch of playtesters. |
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78 |
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79 In this installment, I am going to discuss how Scattershot initially |
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80 treats the difference between gamemasters and players. This is not |
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81 because the differences are important to stress, but in the light of how |
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82 much overlap there /can/ be, the difference exposes some of the latitude |
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83 that the game mechanic must address. One of the primary concerns of |
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84 Scattershot is to treat gamemaster and player alike, because their roles |
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85 will blur more and more as people get beyond this traditional model. |
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86 |
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87 Once again this latitude allows people who play Scattershot to 'find |
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88 their own level,' either by trial and error or by informed choice |
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89 (hopefully the technique section of Scattershot can help there). |
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90 Ultimately this is about finding a balance between the extremes. Here |
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91 are some of the more important extremes as demostrated by the |
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92 differences between how Scattershot affords players and gamemasters in |
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93 the 'thumbnail of gaming' chapter. |
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94 |
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95 Character Creation: |
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96 |
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97 In keeping with the 'emotional attachment' that is a result of a |
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98 more detailed character creation system (as described in both the |
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99 first regular installment of the [SCATTERSHOT:] articles |
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100 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1> |
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101 and this article |
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102 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=457&forum=4>), |
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103 players create characters /for themselves/.[/list:u] |
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104 Gamemasters, on the other hand, mostly create characters |
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105 /for everyone's/ collective enjoyment.[/list:u]Play: |
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106 |
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107 Because it makes little sense to have a game that is |
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108 not /for/ the players (being the bulk of the |
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109 participants) and in keeping with the sharing |
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110 principal |
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111 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1> |
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112 I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play |
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113 forward. While events in the game should not wait for |
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114 player character action, the game /should/ obligate |
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115 the player characters to some kind of action. (Who |
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116 wants to play inertia?)[/list:u] |
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117 In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do |
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118 what they can to facilitate play. This is one |
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119 of the main reasons they traditionally create |
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120 characters, for the facilitation of |
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121 play.[/list:u]'Flow of Play' issues, like |
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122 pacing, scale, and scope: |
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123 |
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124 Players /can/ affect these.[/list:u] |
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125 Gamemasters /must/ according to |
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126 tradition.[/list:u]Using the |
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127 mechanics during play: |
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128 |
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129 Players can invoke them |
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130 whenever they feel a need for |
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131 them.[/list:u] |
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132 Gamemasters are then |
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133 expected to arbitrate. |
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134 Because of the |
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135 impartiality issues I |
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136 described earlier |
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137 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>, |
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138 it is important for |
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139 gamemasters to only |
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140 arbitrate in a fashion |
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141 that is 'fair' but also |
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142 open under these |
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143 mechanics. For this |
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144 reason Scattershot is |
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145 designed (counter to the |
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146 traditional model) to |
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147 allow anyone to |
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148 arbitrate, not just the |
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149 gamemaster.[/list:u]I |
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150 guess on some level this |
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151 describes mechanics as |
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152 the tool of the player |
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153 which is then the |
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154 responsibility of the |
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155 gamemaster. In most |
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156 traditional instances I |
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157 know, in the application |
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158 of the mechanics, the |
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159 gamemaster mostly only |
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160 responds to these (and |
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161 is the only respondant); |
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162 this is an unfortunate |
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163 balance (that we feel |
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164 needs to be changed). |
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165 Scattershot's mechanics |
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166 are meant to be a tool |
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167 for everyone and should |
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168 allow anyone to |
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169 arbitrate, because of |
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170 the overlap in all |
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171 roles. However, |
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172 ultimately, when an |
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173 irreconcilable |
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174 inter-participant |
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175 conflict exists within |
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176 the playing group, only |
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177 then does Scattershot |
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178 have the gamemaster be |
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179 the final arbiter. |
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180 |
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181 Next up, where and when |
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182 are mechanics used or |
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183 needed. |
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184 |
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185 Fang Langford |
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186 |
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187 Logged |
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188 |
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189 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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190 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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191 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
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192 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
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193 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
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194 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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195 |
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196 *Ron Edwards |
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197 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>* |
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198 Global Moderator |
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199 Member |
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200 * |
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201 Posts: 12610 |
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202 |
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203 |
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204 View Profile |
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205 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW |
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206 <http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com> |
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207 |
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208 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10128#msg10128> |
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209 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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210 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10128#msg10128>* |
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211 « *Reply #1 on:* December 27, 2001, 02:26:00 PM » |
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212 |
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213 |
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214 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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215 Hey, |
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216 |
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217 It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if |
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218 /everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player |
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219 responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those |
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220 assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways. |
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221 |
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222 My writing of Sorcerer ('89 in the barest beginning stages; '94-96 in |
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223 the nuts & bolts stages, '96-98 for the playtesting stages) shows |
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224 horrible scar tissue and baseball-type stitches about this issue. There |
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225 are still patches of prose that I didn't catch prior to book-printing, |
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226 in which the term "GM" should really be replaced with "the group," or |
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227 "GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides." I |
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228 assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding |
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229 ideologue of the group, and now I think differently. |
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230 |
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231 Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so |
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232 much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player |
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233 roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think |
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234 there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits |
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235 a variety of Transitional outcomes? |
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236 |
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237 Best, |
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238 Ron |
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239 Logged |
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240 |
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241 *joshua neff |
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242 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>* |
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243 Member |
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244 |
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245 Posts: 844 |
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246 |
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247 |
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248 View Profile |
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249 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW |
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250 <http://www.goblin-cartoons.com> |
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251 |
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252 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10140#msg10140> |
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253 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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254 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10140#msg10140>* |
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255 « *Reply #2 on:* December 27, 2001, 03:26:00 PM » |
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256 |
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257 |
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258 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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259 Quote |
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260 Because it makes little sense to have a game that is not for the players |
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261 (being the bulk of the participants) and in keeping with the sharing |
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262 principal I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play |
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263 forward. While events in the game should not wait for player character |
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264 action, the game should obligate the player characters to some kind of |
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265 action. (Who wants to play inertia?) |
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266 |
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267 |
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268 Amen, brother! |
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269 |
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270 Quote |
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271 In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do what they can to |
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272 facilitate play. |
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273 |
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274 |
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275 Thank you thank you thank you for using the word "facilitate". As Ron |
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276 has heard me rant many a time, I also think the GM's primary role is |
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277 that of facilitator. (For example, in narrativist play, the GM is not |
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278 the "storyteller". S/he is the facilitator of the players being |
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279 "storytellers".) (Side note: I think this extends to other areas as |
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280 well. I think a teacher's role is to facilitate students educating |
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281 themselves, a librarian's role is to facilitate patrons finding |
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282 information, an artist's role is to facilitate everybody creating art, |
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283 ad nauseum.) |
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284 |
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285 I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of |
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286 a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody |
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287 being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions. |
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288 |
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289 You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang. |
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290 Logged |
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291 |
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292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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293 --josh |
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294 |
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295 "You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes |
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296 |
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297 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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298 Member |
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299 |
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300 Posts: 1363 |
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301 |
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302 |
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303 View Profile |
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304 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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305 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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306 |
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307 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10158#msg10158> |
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308 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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309 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10158#msg10158>* |
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310 « *Reply #3 on:* December 27, 2001, 09:45:00 PM » |
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311 |
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312 |
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313 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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314 Quote |
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315 Ron Edwards wrote: |
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316 |
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317 It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if |
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318 /everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player |
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319 responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those |
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320 assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways. |
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321 |
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322 That's why I thought it needed to be spelled out concretely. Another of |
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323 Scattershot's design objectives was that, while being organized for |
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324 beginners to grasp, it had to also have a thing or two to tell |
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325 experienced gamers. I thought one of the best things I could do was to |
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326 at least provide explicit roles for gamemasters and players up front, |
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327 with some discussion on how these both overlap and can have their |
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328 responsibilities shifted to the other party. This provides grist for |
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329 the experienced gamer mill to grind out some new understandings for |
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330 themselves. (The trick will be to not 'talk under' or 'talk over' |
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331 anyone's heads, simultaneously.) |
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332 |
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333 Quote |
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334 ...or "GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides." |
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335 I assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding |
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336 ideologue of the group, and now I think differently. |
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337 |
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338 Agreed. I also think that ultimate decisions should be held to a group |
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339 decision because of the aforementioned 'sharing principal.' I put the |
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340 gamemaster up as final authority because, 1 is an odd number (which |
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341 avoids deadlocks), and a single person often acts faster than a |
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342 committee when it comes to tough decisions (preserving 'flow of play' as |
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343 I mentioned over in the earlier article |
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344 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2>). |
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345 |
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346 Quote |
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347 Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so |
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348 much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player |
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349 roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think |
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350 there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits |
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351 a variety of Transitional outcomes? |
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352 |
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353 I believe I have already mentioned that one of Scattershot's design |
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354 specifications is that it is meant to be 'familiar' to experienced |
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355 gamers (though I cannot find the reference). This means we /must/ use |
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356 terms like hit points, gamemaster, and so on. In our case that also |
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357 means we give the terms 'gamemaster' and 'player' and the descriptions |
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358 above /as a starting point/. I would have gone into the details of the |
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359 techniques that allow Transition away from traditional models for these |
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360 'roles at the table,' but I only posted this as underpinning for |
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361 upcoming installments (as I said, these show the /extremes/ that can be |
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362 had). |
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363 |
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364 And yes, I do think there is a "stable way" to set these up. If you |
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365 remember back to when I posted Scattershot's chapter layout |
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366 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=673&forum=2>, you |
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367 can see that the basic premise of what players and gamemasters are is |
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368 layed out quite early. When the text comes back to these issues, a |
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369 reader will be expected to have a handle on how these work in the |
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370 traditional sense. Based on that, in terms of describing the |
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371 techniques, we can work from /there/ (but only if we are /very careful/ |
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372 how we depict these roles in the first place). |
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373 |
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374 Fang Langford |
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375 |
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376 [ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 00:47 ] |
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377 Logged |
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378 |
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379 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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380 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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381 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
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382 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
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383 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
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384 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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385 |
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386 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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387 Member |
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388 |
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389 Posts: 1363 |
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390 |
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391 |
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392 View Profile |
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393 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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394 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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395 |
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396 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10161#msg10161> |
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397 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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398 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10161#msg10161>* |
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399 « *Reply #4 on:* December 27, 2001, 10:41:00 PM » |
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400 |
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401 |
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402 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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403 Quote |
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404 joshua neff wrote: |
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405 |
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406 Quote |
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407 Fang wrote: |
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408 |
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409 Gamemasters must therefore do what they can to facilitate play. |
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410 |
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411 Thank you for using the word "facilitate". I also think the GM's primary |
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412 role is that of facilitator. [Snip.] |
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413 |
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414 I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of |
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415 a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody |
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416 being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions. |
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417 |
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418 Role-playing games, in my opinion, certainly do not need gamemasters. |
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419 In fact, I tend to think of gamemasterless play as an unreachable |
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420 ideal. On a practical level, there are a number of things a gamemaster |
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421 is most ideally suited to handling (at least when no one else is |
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422 interested). Aside from the relative ease their role makes for them to |
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423 portray the hundreds of extras that populate a game, I think I rather |
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424 clearly designated the remainder of their traditional duties back in |
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425 this article |
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426 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=993&forum=14> about |
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427 Scattershot's live-action techniques. |
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428 |
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429 Simply listed, they were: referee of /player/ disputes, the game's |
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430 originator (or at least the codifier), facilitator of play (keeping up |
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431 the 'flow of play,' steering relevance, and et cetera), facilities |
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432 arrangement (though this is most often delegated, if the gamemaster, in |
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433 all these other roles, does not make it, the game doesn't happen), and |
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434 finally handling 'membership' (surprise characters can be very |
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435 disruptive, running against facilitation). |
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436 |
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437 There is one role 'hidden' within being the 'facilitator of play;' that |
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438 is being the 'head' of the game. In large corporations (and in the US |
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439 government for that matter), at some point there is a sole individual |
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440 who is charged with orchestrating the actions of the unit whole (most |
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441 often outwardly). This serves how the group survives as its own entity. |
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442 |
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443 Now I am not talking about a dictatorship here; rare is the company |
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444 where the CEO makes changes that take the whole by surprise, but even |
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445 though advised and 'checked and balanced' there is nothing that beats |
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446 the efficacy and quick reactions (when needed) of a single individual. |
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447 |
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448 The number one, main reason I gave this topic its own article is because |
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449 I have to agree that it does require a good deal of discussion, and I |
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450 for one, did not want the totality of Scattershot's mechanics to hide |
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451 this potential for discussion. |
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452 |
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453 Quote |
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454 You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang. |
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455 |
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456 Thank you, I appreciate the input. The number two reason I segregated |
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457 this topic was that I am not convinced that I have the whole of it yet. |
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458 I look forward to what becomes of each of the component articles in the |
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459 [SCATTERSHOT:] series. |
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460 |
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461 Fang Langford |
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462 Logged |
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463 |
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464 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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465 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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466 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
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467 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
|
468 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
|
469 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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470 |
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471 *joshua neff |
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472 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>* |
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473 Member |
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474 |
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475 Posts: 844 |
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476 |
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477 |
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478 View Profile |
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479 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW |
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480 <http://www.goblin-cartoons.com> |
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481 |
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482 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10177#msg10177> |
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483 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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484 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10177#msg10177>* |
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485 « *Reply #5 on:* December 28, 2001, 07:04:00 AM » |
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486 |
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487 |
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488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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489 Fang-- |
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490 |
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491 While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of |
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492 players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM |
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493 to guide them all (*ahem*). I think GM-less play (which is really |
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494 "everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a completely feasible option, & one which |
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495 shouldn't be discounted. I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to |
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496 be a GM" is a basic mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover |
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497 from playing in dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows,I've been in |
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498 enough gaming groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of |
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499 authority. But I've also been in groups in which consensus was the rule, |
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500 not the exception. |
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501 |
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502 I would love to see more RPGs which promoted & facilitated something |
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503 other than the "one GM" concept. (& despite my own preferences, I'd love |
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504 to play more "everyone's a GM" games.) |
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505 Logged |
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506 |
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507 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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508 --josh |
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509 |
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510 "You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes |
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511 |
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512 *mahoux <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=129>* |
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513 Member |
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514 |
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515 Posts: 119 |
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516 |
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517 |
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518 View Profile |
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519 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=129> WWW |
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520 <http://home.earthlink.net/~knahoux> |
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521 |
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522 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10209#msg10209> |
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523 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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524 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10209#msg10209>* |
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525 « *Reply #6 on:* December 28, 2001, 09:43:00 AM » |
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526 |
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527 |
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528 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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529 Josh- |
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530 I am currently writing a turn-based RPG where there is no GM, but the |
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531 "non-active" players play all the NPCs and help drive the action, |
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532 basically a reverse RPG. |
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533 |
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534 Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02. |
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535 |
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536 But that's neither here nor there to the thread. My own idea is that |
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537 everyone needs to work together to drive the story, or else just have |
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538 the GM read to you all from the Chronicles of Narnia or something. |
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539 Logged |
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540 |
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541 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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542 Taking the & out of AD&D |
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543 |
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544 http://home.earthlink.net/~knahoux/KOTR_2.html <"<a>">Knights of the |
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545 Road, Knights of the Rail has hit the rails! |
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546 |
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547 *lumpley <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=119>* |
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548 Acts of Evil Playtesters |
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549 Member |
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550 * |
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551 Posts: 2091 |
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552 |
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553 |
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554 View Profile |
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555 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=119> WWW |
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556 <http://www.lumpley.com/> |
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557 |
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558 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10227#msg10227> |
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559 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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560 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10227#msg10227>* |
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561 « *Reply #7 on:* December 28, 2001, 10:53:00 AM » |
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562 |
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563 |
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564 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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565 At the risk of contributing to thread-hijack, the Ars Magica game I play |
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566 is fully co-GMed. Such a thing is entirely possible and, let me tell |
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567 you, big big fun. |
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568 |
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569 At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too. (By which I |
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570 mean for mechanics we use the 'mechanics' that drive any shared creative |
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571 process: discussion, debate, as much clarity as possible, willingness to |
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572 compromise, and just generally all caring about the game.) |
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573 |
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574 If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal, |
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575 day-to-day consensus that makes roleplaying happen breaks down -- and if |
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576 you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them. But boyo |
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577 that's me being pedantic. I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks |
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578 like a great game so far. |
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579 |
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580 -lumpley Vincent |
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581 Logged |
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582 |
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583 *Laurel <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=216>* |
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584 Member |
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585 |
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586 Posts: 243 |
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587 |
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588 |
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589 View Profile |
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590 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=216> WWW |
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591 <http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/white_wolf_games> |
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592 |
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593 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10243#msg10243> |
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594 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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595 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10243#msg10243>* |
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596 « *Reply #8 on:* December 28, 2001, 01:31:00 PM » |
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597 |
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598 |
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599 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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600 First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment. |
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601 It tackled a really tricky issue. |
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602 |
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603 One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be |
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604 is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and |
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605 personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not |
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606 going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining |
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607 the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of |
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608 play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer, |
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609 consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage |
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610 participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal. |
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611 |
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612 Laurel |
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613 Logged |
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614 |
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615 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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616 Member |
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617 |
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618 Posts: 1363 |
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619 |
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620 |
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621 View Profile |
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622 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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623 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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624 |
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625 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10268#msg10268> |
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626 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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627 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10268#msg10268>* |
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628 « *Reply #9 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:25:00 PM » |
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629 |
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630 |
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631 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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632 Quote |
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633 joshua neff wrote: |
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634 |
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635 While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of |
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636 players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM |
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637 to guide them all (*ahem*). |
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638 |
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639 Same here. The reasons I created these breakdowns was to have a |
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640 starting point towards explaining how to do things differently. |
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641 |
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642 Quote |
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643 I think GM-less play (which is really "everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a |
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644 completely feasible option, & one which shouldn't be discounted. |
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645 |
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646 I don't mean to discount it, but considering how important I think the |
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647 emotional attachment to a game /through/ their characters is for the |
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648 players, I find it an extremely sophisticated form of play to switch |
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649 between 'player' and 'gamemaster' as frequently as a "gamemaster-filled" |
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650 game requires. Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I |
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651 have very little room to address this kind of play in the core products. |
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652 |
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653 On the other hand, if you read through the link I gave above, you can |
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654 see that I have gone to great lengths to create techniques that allows a |
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655 live-action Scattershot game to be essentially 'gamemaster-free' game. |
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656 |
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657 Quote |
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658 I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to be a GM" is a basic |
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659 mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover from playing in |
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660 dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows, I've been in enough gaming |
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661 groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of authority. But I've |
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662 also been in groups in which consensus was the rule, not the exception. |
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663 |
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664 Actually, the 'sharing' of any game (or game-world) underscores the |
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665 actually high level of consensus that already exists in gaming. I never |
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666 meant to depreciate the value of decision-by-consensus, but I felt that |
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667 in some cases it can be more important to have a speedy decision (like |
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668 can be had by a single gamemaster) than one subject to debate as can be |
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669 sometimes necessary with consensus. |
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670 |
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671 Scattershot's playing techniques describe a general use of consensus |
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672 throughout, but has the group place its consensual 'power' in the |
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673 gamemaster for those times when time is more important than discussion |
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674 (just like a representative democracy). |
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675 |
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676 Fang Langford |
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677 |
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678 [ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 20:08 ] |
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679 Logged |
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680 |
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681 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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682 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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683 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
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684 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
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685 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
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686 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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687 |
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688 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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689 Member |
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690 |
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691 Posts: 1363 |
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692 |
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693 |
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694 View Profile |
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695 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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696 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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697 |
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698 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10269#msg10269> |
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699 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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700 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10269#msg10269>* |
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701 « *Reply #10 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:28:00 PM » |
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702 |
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703 |
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704 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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705 Quote |
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706 Mahoux wrote: |
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707 |
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708 I am currently writing a turn-based RPG... |
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709 [Snip.] |
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710 Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02. |
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711 |
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712 Wow!?! Next week! I wish I was that fast. |
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713 |
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714 Fang Langford |
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715 Logged |
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716 |
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717 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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718 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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719 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
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720 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
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721 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
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722 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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723 |
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724 *joshua neff |
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725 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>* |
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726 Member |
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727 |
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728 Posts: 844 |
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729 |
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730 |
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731 View Profile |
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732 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW |
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733 <http://www.goblin-cartoons.com> |
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734 |
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735 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10272#msg10272> |
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736 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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737 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10272#msg10272>* |
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738 « *Reply #11 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:38:00 PM » |
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739 |
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740 |
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741 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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742 Quote |
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743 Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I have very little |
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744 room to address this kind of play in the core products. |
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745 |
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746 |
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747 Oh, I understand. I just felt the need, as I often do, to start looking |
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748 at alternatives. I think you're right to put forth the (for lack of a |
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749 better word) traditional way of playing. |
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750 Logged |
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751 |
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752 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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753 --josh |
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754 |
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755 "You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes |
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756 |
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757 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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758 Member |
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759 |
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760 Posts: 1363 |
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761 |
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762 |
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763 View Profile |
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764 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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765 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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766 |
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767 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10273#msg10273> |
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768 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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769 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10273#msg10273>* |
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770 « *Reply #12 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:44:00 PM » |
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771 |
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772 |
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773 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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774 Quote |
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775 lumpley wrote: |
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776 |
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777 At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too. |
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778 |
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779 This matches what I described in [SCATTERSHOT:] Whence go the Mechanics |
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780 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1087&forum=2&0> as |
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781 General play. (If you want to go back and look at it.) |
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782 |
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783 Quote |
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784 If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal, |
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785 day-to-day consensus that makes role-playing happen, breaks down -- and |
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786 if you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them. |
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787 |
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788 Exactly the point I am making. But beginners cannot be expected to be |
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789 sophisticated enough to play this way on the first go. Since |
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790 Scattershot is for beginners as well as experienced players, I need to |
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791 set down a 'starting point' to describe these sorts of things. |
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792 |
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793 Quote |
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794 I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks like a great game so far. |
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795 |
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796 Thank you very much, I cannot say how well I appreciate the compliments |
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797 (words fail). I hope to hear more of what you think as the remainder is |
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798 posted. |
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799 |
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800 Fang Langford |
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801 Logged |
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802 |
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803 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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804 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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805 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
|
806 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
|
807 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
|
808 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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809 |
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810 *joshua neff |
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811 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28>* |
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812 Member |
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813 |
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814 Posts: 844 |
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815 |
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816 |
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817 View Profile |
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818 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=28> WWW |
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819 <http://www.goblin-cartoons.com> |
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820 |
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821 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10274#msg10274> |
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822 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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823 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10274#msg10274>* |
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824 « *Reply #13 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:57:00 PM » |
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825 |
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826 |
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827 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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828 You know, something's been niggling at me, & I think I just nailed what |
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829 it is. |
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830 |
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831 Fang, you've referred to "GM-less"/"everyone's-a-GM" play as |
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832 "sophisticated", & that Scattershot, as primarily for beginners, |
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833 shouldn't expect people to be able to easily achieve this level of play. |
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834 |
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835 Here's the thing. I don't think it's sophisticated. Not any more than |
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836 "traditional" RPG play. |
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837 |
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838 When I was in grade school, my friends & I played Superheroes everyday |
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839 on the playground. We spun long, elaborate narratives over the course of |
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840 the school year. Villains died & returned, heroes were faced with |
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841 conflict, & dumb fart jokes were made. There was no GM, all decisions |
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842 were made essentially by consensus. I don't think what we were doing was |
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843 any more sophisticated than playing /D&D/ with one GM making decisions |
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844 (in the style of, as you said, a representative democracy). |
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845 |
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846 I guess I feel like you're not giving beginners enough credit. |
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847 Especially considering they haven't had the dysfunctional RPG |
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848 experiences a lot of us old timers have had. I think beginners could |
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849 quite possibly handle a myriad of RPG styles easily. Which is not to say |
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850 that the way you're going about Scattershot is wrong by any stretch of |
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851 the imagination. You've obviously put a LOT of thought into this, & so |
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852 far it looks really good. |
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853 Logged |
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854 |
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855 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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856 --josh |
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857 |
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858 "You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes |
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859 |
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860 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>* |
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861 Member |
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862 |
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863 Posts: 1363 |
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864 |
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865 |
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866 View Profile |
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867 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW |
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868 <http://www.scattershotgames.com> |
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869 |
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870 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10275#msg10275> |
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871 *Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters |
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872 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.msg10275#msg10275>* |
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873 « *Reply #14 on:* December 28, 2001, 05:05:00 PM » |
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874 |
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875 |
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876 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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877 Quote |
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878 Laurel wrote: |
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879 |
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880 First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment. |
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881 It tackled a really tricky issue. |
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882 |
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883 One that I have felt for some time has needed to be 'outed.' I am not |
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884 comfortable saying that I 'have it,' but I think I have at least |
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885 conceived of a good 'starting point.' |
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886 |
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887 Quote |
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888 One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be |
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889 is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and |
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890 personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not |
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891 going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining |
|
892 the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of |
|
893 play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer, |
|
894 consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage |
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895 participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal. |
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896 |
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897 Actually no. What I described was not that close to my ideal. As I |
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898 have stated elsewhere, we chose to have Scattershot be accessible to as |
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899 much of the audience of experienced gamers as possible. In keeping with |
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900 that, I created the above descriptions of what I consider the functional |
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901 traditional set-up. |
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902 |
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903 My actual perspective is that 'flow of play' is more important than what |
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904 are the specific duties or rights of either players or gamemasters. I |
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905 established the above relationships only as a starting point. |
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906 (Actually, I listed the above traditional relationships so as to show |
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907 some of the extremes that the features I delved into could reach.) |
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908 |
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909 In the techniques given in Scattershot, we deal with these roles (and |
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910 variations on them) in much more detail. Since, in this series of |
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911 articles, I am only dealing with the mechanical portion of Scattershot, |
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912 I only brought these up only to suggest some of the different types of |
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913 emotional investments that can be had (at least traditionally) and how |
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914 they relate the actual issues I was discussing. |
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915 |
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916 Thank you for your insightful commentary. It goes a long way towards |
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917 suggesting the totality of the realms of player-gamemaster |
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918 relationships. (Which I hope to comment on some day when I delve into |
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919 the techniques of Scattershot, right now I have my hands full detailing |
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920 the mechanics though.) |
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921 |
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922 Fang Langford |
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923 Logged |
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924 |
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925 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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926 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing |
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927 Game System. This project has been permanently suspended. If you have |
|
928 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he |
|
929 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com |
|
930 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com> |
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931 |
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932 *Pages:* [*1*] 2 |
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933 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.15> 3 |
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934 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.30> Print |
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935 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1080.0> |
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936 |
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937 « previous |
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938 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.0;prev_next=prev> |
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940 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080;prev_next=next> |
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