draft/whole_model.txt
author fabien
Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:32:44 -0400
branchecjdr
changeset 92 bdef1afd1170
permissions -rw-r--r--
[svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400 Mise à jour préventive.
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+  *The Forge <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php>*
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|-+  *General Forge Forums <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php#1>*
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| |-+  *GNS Model Discussion <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0>*
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| | |-+  *The whole model - this is it <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.0>*
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*Pages:* [*1*] 2 3 * ... *5
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Author 	Topic: The whole model - this is it  (Read 13307 times)
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*Ron Edwards
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<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*
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Global Moderator
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Member
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*
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Posts: 12610
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View Profile
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<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW
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<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>
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<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90112#msg90112>
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*The whole model - this is it
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<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90112#msg90112>*
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« * on:* November 11, 2003, 03:49:15 PM »
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hello,
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All the following material is supplemental to the existing essays, but
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it also overrules them as well as any of my previous comments in forum
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discussions at any point of contradiction.
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In other words, all of the following is the straight dope as of this
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writing. If a particular term or concept isn't mentioned here, then the
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pre-existing material stands; ask about it if that material isn't clear
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to you. If I haven't defined a term (and I define very few here), that
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means that the current definition is intended to stand.
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My plan is to hammer out any necessary hassles about this material in
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this thread, and then rewrite the whole damn thing in "nice and
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friendly" prose, which as far as I know is pretty much the first time
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that will have been done. For a sample of the tone/logic I'll be using,
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see *GNS - what is it? <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5860>*.
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THE MODEL ITSELF
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*[Social Contract]*
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Social Contract encompasses everything about role-playing, because it is
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the sum of all interactions among the people involved. If these people
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happen to be role-playing together, then Social Contract crucially
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includes "Let's play this game." This crucial element is what's further
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subdivided throughout the rest of this model.
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*[Social Contract [Exploration]]*
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The above two terms do not constitute a dichotomy. Exploration
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("imagined stuff," "shared imagined space"), as previously defined in my
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essays, is an expression or application of that particular group's
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Social Contract. One cannot say "That's just social" when discussing
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some aspect of play, nor can one write off Social Contract as "just
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being polite" with actual play being something else.
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Exploration is usually described as merely a list of Character, Setting,
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Situation, System, and Color. But it does have more internal/imaginary
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structure: Character + Setting make Situation, System permits Situation
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to "move," and Color affects all the others. This concept applies only
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to the imaginary causes among the elements, by the way; the actual
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effort, priority, or cause among these things, in social/creative terms,
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varies widely.
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*[Social Contract [Exploration [Creative Agenda]]]*
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Creative Agenda is the blanket term for any and all GNS modes or
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priorities of play. The Venn diagram is supposed to indicate that any
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Creative Agenda is an expression or application of Exploration among the
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real-people group. Since Exploration necessarily includes System, that
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means, as soon as we start talking about Creative Agenda, "play has begun."
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On paper, I draw this terms as an arrow, labelled GNS or Creative
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Agenda. This arrow is very important - this "step" or "level" in my
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model shifts out of the abstract and solidly into this group, playing
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this game, this way, at this time. The model instantly ceases to be a
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broad overview or comparative panoply, and starts to be a diagnostic or
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description of a real play-experience among real people. Unless you are
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thinking of such a case, you will be left flailing at this point in the
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discussion.
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For purposes of explaining the overall model, I'm profoundly
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uninterested in discusing the nuances, internal relationships,
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definitions, or anything else about the internal content of Creative
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Agenda. All I care about, at this point, is that people recognize that
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role-playing requires such a thing to exist.
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*[Social Contract [Exploration [Creative Agenda --> [Techniques]]]]*
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To understand this part, again, recognize that Creative Agenda and the
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arrow symbol are supposed to be the same thing, not two things. That
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means that we are talking about some actual play. The panoply of
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Techniques being employed in that instance, over time, either satisfy or
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fail to satisfy one or more Creative Agendas.
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It's not too off-the-wall to think of Techniques as being a direct
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expression of the more abstract concept of System (way up in
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Exploration), except that System doesn't exist all by itself - it's
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fully integrated with all the other components of Exploration. But if
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you keep that in mind, then yes, the arrow represented by Creative
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Agenda can indeed be "shot" from the bow of System.
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Techniques include IIEE, Drama/Karma/Fortune, search time & handling
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time, narration apportioning, reward system, points of contact,
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character components (Effectiveness, Metagame, Resource), scene framing,
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currency among the character components, and much more. Each of these
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terms represents a /range/ of potential play-methods. I consider the two
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most important Techniques to be reward system and IIEE.
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*[Social Contract [Exploration [Creative Agenda --> [Techniques
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[Ephemera]]]]]*
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Ephemera is a new term, indicating the smallest-scale interactions and
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activities of role-playing: anything that gets factored into or is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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expressed by play in the space of a few seconds.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Although fleeting, Ephemera are emphatically not trivial. As with every
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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level/box so far, fairly extensive combinations of Ephemera express or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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apply one or more Techniques. They are the internal anatomy, if you
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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will, of Techniques and hence (conceptualizing upward) of System.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Ephemera include individual Stances, in-character vs. out-of-character
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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diction and dialogue, referring to texts, sound effects, taking or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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referring to notes, kibitzing, laughing, praise or disapproval, specific
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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dice or other system-based outcome interpretations, showing pictures,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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and anything similar.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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*Clarification*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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Some related topics are out of the scope of this discussion. I'm happy
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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to discuss them in other threads /if/ the person is completely able to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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demonstrate understanding of the material presented so far. However,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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none of them are going to occupy a whole lot of my emotional attention,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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at least not until the Narrativism essay is done.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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- The relationship of S to N and/or G, or any other nuances of GNS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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definitions or combinations within the [Creative Agenda] level. With any
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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luck, all three essays will do a good job of at least making /myself/
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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clear about this stuff. Whether that will mean a damn thing in terms of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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resolving anything for anyone else, I can't say.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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- Incoherence and/or dysfunctional play based on GNS incompatibilities.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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This one will be a big deal for some, but I suspect it's a matter of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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defensiveness in many cases: "You say it's incoherent but we have fun!"
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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To which I can only reply, "Sounds coherent to me," or, "I suspect your
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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'fun' isn't as 'fun' as you think, for everyone." I've been saddened by
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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how often the latter response has proved accurate in the long run.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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- Commerce of any kind, especially in terms of "success." This
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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discussion, unfortunately, will have to await a much broader
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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understanding of game marketing and commerce than I think is the case,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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currently. Recent threads at the Forge reinforce my impression about this.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Instead of going into stuff like the above, this thread is devoted to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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clarifying any aspect of the Big Picture as presented here, especially
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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inter-relations among the levels, and how they are to be assessed and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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discussed. I'd especially like to talk about combinations of Ephemera
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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relative to one or more Techniques, and combinations of Techniques
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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relative to one or more categories within Creative Agenda.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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DESIGN, RULES, AND TEXTS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Design, when all is said and done, means authorship of a rules text.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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"Rules" aren't part of the model any more. As I now see it, rules texts
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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are not and can never be "role-playing," but rather are recommendations
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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regarding the model, if you will, in hopes (shared by the readers) that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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people who read it can get that version of the model into action.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Therefore the goal of design, it seems to me, is to make sense to the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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reader in terms of the whole model. It's like a musical instrument, or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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several of them, as well as instructions for how to play them, and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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finally some music or chords to work with. Seems easy? Well, here are
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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the usual problems I see with role-playing texts, now that I have this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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"model" thing setting next to me as I type.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Problem 1 = Simply leaving whole levels out, assuming that readers
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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already know and agree exactly where you're coming from for those
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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levels. It's conceivable that, for instance, a panoply of Techniques are
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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simply so powerful in reinforcing some subset of Creative Agenda that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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stating the latter would be redundant, but as far as I can tell, most
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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rules-sets aren't that lucky.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Problem 2 = Problematic combinations of Techniques which lead to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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confusion about Creative Agenda, which in turn means a whole lot of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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local construction about "why we play." If you want to call this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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"incoherence," you can - it's what I originally meant by the term, which
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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I'm considering retiring from use. And although I stand by my point that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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this issue usually is a genuine problem for role-players, don't get me
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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started on early Champions or Amber, both of which turned out to benefit
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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greatly from the very same phenomenon. Whole 'nother essays, waiting to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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happen.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Problem 3 = Plain bad system design, which is to say, unsatisfying at
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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the group level for any particular Creative Agenda. If a given
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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rules-loop allows an "automatic win" in Gamist play, if it jars the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Dream inconsistently with other features of the game, if it locks down
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Premise too tightly ... any of these "break" a game relative to a given
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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goal of play. Such games tend to be instantly discarded or instantly
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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repaired, often covertly (people insist that the "right" way to play
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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just happens not to be textual).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Problem 4 = Nonsensical prose, which might accompany perfectly good
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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rules. This is far more common than is good for any hobby, I think. It's
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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often associated with Creative Agenda issues, but also with many aspects
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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of character creation.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Here's also what I see when looking at each level of the model and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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thinking about rules texts.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Social Contract and rules: This is where all those "What is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Role-playing" sections fall flat on their face. Just to pick the most
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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glaring example, I'm here to say that role-playing is not, and never
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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was, "cops and robbers with dice to resolve disputes." Going by the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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model, people roll dice (or whatever) because they /agree/ about the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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imagined events, not because they /disagree/. It might be interesting to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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see whether anyone could write an introduction to a role-playing game
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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that really did specify Social Contract issues in a way which set up all
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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the following material in the game. Everway, perhaps? Universalis?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Creative Agenda and rules: Most role-playing texts are emphatically
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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silent about Creative Agendas, especially in the model's context that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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it's an expression of imaginative Social Contract. Often, especially
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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when Gamist priorities seem to be invoked, one can parse out the GNS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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recommendation by looking at key words and phrasing ("When your
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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character dies, you have lost the game."). The more emphatic
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Simulationist texts (Arrowflight) are often clearer, but whenever the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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term "story" gets thrown around in a vague, "You know, the /story/" way,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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I think the text becomes dramatically less helpful. I'm very impressed
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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with the introduction in the Marvel Universe RPG, which provides an
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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amazing textbook piece on the differences between Gamist ("The Brawl")
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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and Narrativist ("With great power comes great responsibility") play,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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emphasizing that a group does well to decide which they would prefer to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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do when playing the game.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Techniques and rules: Here's the most solid correspondence; I don't
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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think it's difficult to see how most rules are in fact instructions for
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Techniques. The problem is that, according to the model, Techniques
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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alone do not a role-playing game make.
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Ephemera and rules: Here's another tricky one - as with Creative Agenda,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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you have to find key phrases or little snippets scattered around the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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text in order to see whether any Ephemera are being explained or (more
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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likely) assumed to be already standard for the role-players. The most
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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explicit example I can think of are the frequent exhortations toward
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Actor Stance in so many games, as well as the implicit content of a "GM
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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only" section.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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DISCUSSING THE MODEL
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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I am listing some of the issues that people bring to discussing the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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model here at the forums and elsewhere, and including some points of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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interaction with the inherent stumbling blocks. The stumbling blocks
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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usually arrive from people employing one or more of these approaches:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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a) reaching understanding through paraphrasing and correction,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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b) denying understanding as a means of defending oneself from a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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perceived threat,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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c) desperately trying to present one's own developed notions of some
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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kind, and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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d) arguing in order to fit in, a common behavior among members of a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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somewhat socially stunted subculture.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Role-players often arrive at the Forge in an advanced state of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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frustration regarding either play, talking about play, or both. Since
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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there's no way to control (or on my part anyway, no /desire/ to control)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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what people want when they arrive, I think it's important for everyone
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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to consider all of the following points about discussing the model.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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*Point #1:* Nearly everyone who first encounters the theory is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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predisposed to discuss Ephemera. They are also emotionally tied to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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various Ephemera, especially those combinations which reinforce certain
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Techniques, and it's hard to get people to let go of that commitment
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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long enough to look at the variety available. They are often convinced
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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that even looking at alternatives will destroy the entirety of whatever
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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play-profile (real or idealized) that they currently hold in highest esteem.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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/Required point of discussion:/ Get them up to Techniques, which is what
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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they really want to discuss. The key is to validate the Techniques
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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they're trying to reinforce, and to acknowledge to the person that they
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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are, indeed, making sense in these terms. After that point, the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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diversity of Ephemera can be discussed without the person going into
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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protective-mode regarding what Techniques they prefer or are used to.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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*Point #2 (related to #1):* People may also take a Reductionist approach
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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to trying to understand the model, which is to say, they would like the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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"particles" of (say) Stance to be themselves little chunks of GNS, and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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GNS as described simply to be collections of these chunks. This is not
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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the case. Instead, for every box in the model, a category or type of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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"outer box" is always expressed/applied as a /combination/ of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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terms/categories within the inner box.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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/Required point of discussion:/ It's best to speak of combinations
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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within an "inner" box in terms of how it affects or is affected by its
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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"outer" box or boxes. Resist the extreme temptation to identify any one
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Technique, for instance, with a particular GNS category, or any one
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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Ephemera-type event with a particular Technique.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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*Point #3:* Creative Agenda is the "verb" of the model. As a generalized
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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topic, without an actual group or any role-playing to discuss, GNS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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priorities are incredibly vague and abstract, to the point of being
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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uninteresting.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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In application, however, they are extremely concrete and easy to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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recognize. As I wrote in a recent thread,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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The only variables that really make sense, in discussing GNS, are the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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social interactions and communications that go on among the real people
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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at the table, during play.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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What is reinforced among them? Who praises whom, for doing what, and how
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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often? When is a stated or proposed action disallowed, often in very
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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subtle form? What gets everyone listening with undivided attention to a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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single person's announcements? When do people laugh? When do they not
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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laugh, or socially squelch someone else's amusement?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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All of those things, and more, are the only valid variables for
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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assessing a GNS profile for a given instance of play. (And by
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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"instance," I mean a lot of play, at least a session, probably more.)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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I wish I'd made this point earlier. It's a big deal. The definitions of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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GNS are not the same variables one uses to assess GNS in action. Since
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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GNS is a subset of Social Contract - indeed, it's the application of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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Social Contract to the imagined material ("Exploration") - its identity
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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for that group can only be assessed in social terms.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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Furthermore, in application, a given Creative Agenda category is also
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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extremely diverse in terms of possible Techniques, which is what my
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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current three essays (two down, one to go) are mainly about. M.J. Young
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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made a very good point recently when he said that within-Agenda
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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categories (e.g. specific types of Gamism, etc) lead to more rancor and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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"not-us" distinctions among people discussing role-playing than
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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among-Agenda categories, in most cases. Or to put it differently, people
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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are highly committed not to "Gamism" but rather to "Gamism our way." Or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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to put it in terms of my essays, within-category synecdoche seems to be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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an extremely heartfelt, hotly-defended problem.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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/Required point of discussion:/ Don't get sidetracked into definitional
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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descriptions when discussing actual play. If a person really is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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interested in examining the Creative Agenda(s) of his or her
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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role-playing, or more accurately that of his or her group, then focus on
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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social interactions, the real-people approval and disapproval during
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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play itself, as quoted above.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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*Point #4 (related to #3:* Creative Agenda is the most troublesome level
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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of the model for people to discuss, because many folks would very, very
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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much like Techniques to construct a satisfying GNS-profile for them,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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without explicit reference to Social Contract. To link [Social Contract
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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[Exploration]] /causally downward/ into [Techniques], emphasizing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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personal responsibility ("You get what you play for"), is frightening
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
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and unwanted. They want what they want without wanting (a) to say so or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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(b) actually to do that thing. Or if they are getting what they want,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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it's often through Social Contract manipulation and they don't want to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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endanger their carefully-constructed power-play.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
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diff changeset
   368
Here's the biggie: people have often come to idealize "rules" or "lack
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   369
of rules," whichever, in order to cement into play the Techniques that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   370
they are used to or that they think will get them what they want. This
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   371
is the source of Rules and/or Setting Fetishim, as well as the source of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   372
System Doesn't Matter. It's also the source of the /failure/ of both
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   373
tactics, neither of which stand up well in the long term. Cries of "it's
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   374
just a game" or "I just play to have fun" are signs of these tactics in
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   375
a state of final breakdown. Excessive arguing about details of GNS-stuff
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   376
is sometimes a defense mechanism.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   377
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   378
/Required point of discussion/: Stress Creative Agenda as the absolutely
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   379
necessary bridge from "we all like Star Trek" (Exploration) to "this is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   380
how we role-play Star Trek" (Techniques). And just as importantly, be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   381
prepared for the possibility that the person may /not/ be coming from
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   382
the position described in this point, and may well be perfectly comfy
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   383
with the concept of Creative Agenda once they get it properly explained
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   384
in terms of the levels of the model. So over-defensiveness on your part
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   385
should be acknowledged as a potential problem too.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   386
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   387
*Point #5:* Techniques express and satisfy Creative Agenda, whether
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   388
unsuccessfully or successfully. However, the relation between these
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   389
levels is not a tautology. You cannot discuss some abstract "real
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   390
Simulationism," for instance, in terms of Techniques which define it,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   391
and especially not in terms of whatever the imaginary characters did to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   392
or with whomever they fictionally encountered. Instead, you must
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   393
investigate whether X Techniques as applied and socially reinforced in Y
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   394
role-playing group are coalescing around (e.g.) a Simulationist
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   395
aesthetic. This is related to Point #3 in that applying Creative Agenda
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   396
is highly specific to a group of people: their personalities and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   397
interactions, and their habits of play. But my current point is that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   398
Techniques don't "compose" a Creative Agenda in a definitional way.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   399
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   400
/Required point of discussion/: Details of Creative Agenda may not be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   401
the necessary point of discussion anyway; it might just be a matter of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   402
letting the person know you get where they're coming from. For point #4,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   403
getting GNS into the light is crucial. For this point, however, you just
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   404
might need to acknowledge that the Techniques being described, by this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   405
person, do nail the GNS priority he or she prefers. It's very similar to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   406
the "wants-Techniques, talks-Ephemera" issue mentioned for Point #1. In
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   407
this case, it's "wants-GNS, talks-Techniques." Again, the point of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   408
discussion relies on acknowledging the person's valid combination so
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   409
they know they are being heard.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   410
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   411
Also, a person who's confounded over this issue probably needs to hear
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   412
that Creative Agenda categories (GNS) are not principles to live up to,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   413
but rather just a vocabulary that helps describe the whole-model profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   414
for that particular group (or rather, an instance of that group's play
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   415
in action).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   416
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   417
*Point #6:* Rules, Techniques, and System are now carefully
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   418
distinguished from one another in the model. System is a fairly abstract
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   419
term that indicates that the imagined Situation and other elements
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   420
actually change through the activity of role-playing. As a term, I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   421
suggest thinking of it as "/a/ or /any/ system" rather than "/the/
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   422
system." Techniques are extremely concrete and observable methods of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   423
actual play. Rules are textual guides or instructions about any aspect
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   424
of role-playing at any level of the model.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   425
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   426
/Required point of discussion:/ It's going to take some work to help
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   427
people understand that "rules" are not part of the model at all. People
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   428
usually say "rules" when they mean Techniques or System. Instead, they
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   429
are texts, used to greater or lesser extent as a way to establish any
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   430
aspects of the model that the group wants to be established. This is the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   431
Lumpley Principle in action. Discussion of the Principle got a little
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   432
wonky when I was working out "rules" vs. "system," but now I think it's
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   433
nailed.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   434
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   435
*Point #7:* In discussing Techniques, one person's mind-blowing,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   436
door-opening example is another person's ho-hum or still another
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   437
person's deal-breaker. One of the most difficult problems with a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   438
multi-user forum discussion is when Person X explains something about
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   439
the GNS-level to Person Y using a specific Techniques example, and then
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   440
person Z gets the idea that this Technique /is/ the GNS term. And if
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   441
they hate the Technique, then they fall right off the cognitive
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   442
mountain, sometimes irretrievably.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   443
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   444
/Required point of discussion/: Fear is a serious problem when dealing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   445
with a third-party's reaction to these discussions. It's very common for
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   446
someone literally to flip out when reading a Techniques example, as the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   447
example may represent (rightly or wrongly) everything that is Horribly
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   448
Wrong with Other Role-Players in this person's mind. Whereas for the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   449
person to whom the example is addressed, the Horribly Wrong Thing might
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   450
be just what they're looking for; or more likely, the Techniques example
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   451
only works in the very localized context of that person's game being
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   452
discussed (which is why it was used as an example in the first place).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   453
So managing these third-party reactions can be a major issue and take a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   454
lot of time.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   455
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   456
Some final bits about discussion ... we are not talking about minor
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   457
issues at the Forge. We're dealing with how people socialize, how they
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   458
express their creative drives, and how they self-identify in a highly
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   459
technical subculture. The very fact that people register and post
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   460
denotes that they feel a /need/ to communicate about it. So the main
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   461
watchwords are /care/, and yet also, /detach/. The times to detach are
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   462
easy to recognize - whenever any of the following phrases start getting
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   463
thrown around.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   464
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   465
- "But my character would do this ..." Characters are fictional and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   466
cannot make decisions in the absence of a real person's creative input.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   467
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   468
- "System doesn't matter, all you need is a good GM / group" ... All
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   469
role-playing utilizes System, and "good" in this context usually means
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   470
"what I want."
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   471
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   472
- "That upsets balance ..." Balance is a red herring unless it's defined
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   473
in highly specific terms. See my Gamism essay for details.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   474
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   475
- "That's not realistic!" Realism cannot be mandated by "rules," and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   476
like balance, must be locally defined with care. No one "just knows"
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   477
what realism is, in actual play.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   478
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   479
- "The Storyteller Golden Rule ..." This rule is a big puff job, because
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   480
it leaves "fun" undefined, nor does it specify who can mandate when a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   481
rule is to be ignored.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   482
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   483
However, rather than using these responses as comebacks, use them as a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   484
foundation from which to defuse the potential fight. And make no
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   485
mistake, when a person says stuff like this, they're almost certainly
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   486
fighting, in response to being upset with you or with someone from the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   487
past. The only solutions involve removing the confrontation, rather than
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   488
meeting it - all that'll get you is a headache.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   489
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   490
WRAP-UP
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   491
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   492
Any ideas for this section, anyone? I have some, but I thought I'd
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   493
save'em until you all stomp and shatter all of the above material into
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   494
more useable form.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   495
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   496
Best,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   497
Ron
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   498
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   499
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   500
*Ben Lehman
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   501
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   502
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   503
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   504
Posts: 1464
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   505
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   506
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   507
<callto://benlehman/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   508
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   509
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   510
<http://www.tao-games.com/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   511
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   512
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90115#msg90115>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   513
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   514
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90115#msg90115>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   515
« *Reply #1 on:* November 11, 2003, 04:11:21 PM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   516
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   517
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   518
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   519
Thanks.  That clears a lot up for me.  Still needs more digestion, but
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   520
at this point I can say that this matches my beliefs pretty closely...
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   521
 Still many quibbles about other (not included in this post) details,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   522
but that's what makes life interesting, isn't it?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   523
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   524
A few points and questions:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   525
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   526
1)  Is Stance a technique, exploration, or social contract level issue?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   527
 I was under the impression it technique-level, but it seems to me that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   528
it might be higher than that, particular with regard to Lumpley and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   529
Emily style play, where it seems imbedded in the social contract at the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   530
highest level...
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   531
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   532
2)  I think that discussion of Ephemera is VERY important, because it is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   533
where the rubber hits the road in terms of actual play.  Saying that it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   534
should all "be a discussion of techniques" seems a little strange to me.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   535
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   536
3)  The particular layout of this explanation (as a manual for an
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   537
apologist {in the Catholic sense}) is slightly disturbing to me.  I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   538
would change it if you want this to be a reference document for people
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   539
who do not understand your theory, which it is excellent at doing.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   540
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   541
Thanks again.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   542
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   543
yrs--
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   544
--Ben
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   545
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   546
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   547
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   548
These are our Games <http://www.tao-games.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   549
This is my Blog <http://benlehman.thesmerf.com/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   550
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   551
*Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   552
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   553
Global Moderator
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   554
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   555
*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   556
Posts: 12610
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   557
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   558
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   559
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   560
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   561
<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   562
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   563
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90119#msg90119>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   564
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   565
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90119#msg90119>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   566
« *Reply #2 on:* November 11, 2003, 05:11:39 PM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   567
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   568
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   569
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   570
Hi Ben,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   571
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   572
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   573
1) Is Stance a technique, exploration, or social contract level issue? I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   574
was under the impression it technique-level, but it seems to me that it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   575
might be higher than that, particular with regard to Lumpley and Emily
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   576
style play, where it seems imbedded in the social contract at the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   577
highest level...
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   578
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   579
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   580
Don't forget that every single level exists /within/ the levels above it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   581
- those brackets are a big deal. If you touch "Stance," you're reaching
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   582
through Social Contract, Exploration, Creative Agenda, and Technique to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   583
do it.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   584
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   585
Apparently for you, tracing the patch of that "reach" or "touch" is very
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   586
easy and even essential. For others, Stance variations may be nearly a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   587
complete non-issue.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   588
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   589
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   590
2) I think that discussion of Ephemera is VERY important, because it is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   591
where the rubber hits the road in terms of actual play. Saying that it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   592
should all "be a discussion of techniques" seems a little strange to me.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   593
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   594
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   595
I'm not sure you're representing my view correctly. Don't I say, at one
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   596
point, that I'm interested in discussing combinations of Ephemera and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   597
how they represent or affect Technique? Seems like that would satisfy
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   598
your outlook. I can't see anywhere that I say "Techniques are the only
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   599
thing to discuss."
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   600
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   601
As for what level is most important, I guess I'll have to say it now: no
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   602
one of these levels is /The /Level for discussing role-playing. It's
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   603
/all /role-playing. I bet this is going to be one of these things I have
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   604
to say over and over and over.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   605
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   606
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   607
3) The particular layout of this explanation (as a manual for an
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   608
apologist {in the Catholic sense}) is slightly disturbing to me. I would
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   609
change it if you want this to be a reference document for people who do
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   610
not understand your theory, which it is excellent at doing.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   611
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   612
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   613
I have no idea what you're talking about. Not a bit. Rather than
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   614
immediately explaining, are you sure this is something worth discussing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   615
in the first place? I mean, before everyone gets their oars into the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   616
water regarding the basic points?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   617
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   618
Best,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   619
Ron
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   620
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   621
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   622
*Marco <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   623
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   624
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   625
Posts: 1732
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   626
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   627
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   628
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   629
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   630
<http://www.jagsrpg.org>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   631
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   632
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90131#msg90131>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   633
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   634
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90131#msg90131>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   635
« *Reply #3 on:* November 11, 2003, 06:33:22 PM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   636
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   637
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   638
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   639
I'm still digesting it. I think it's an excellent effort. I'll have to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   640
consider it more before having a real, cooked, response.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   641
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   642
I would separate the "problems in design" and "discussion or entry
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   643
points" for another document, possibly with the section on incoherence
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   644
being left in as a historical note.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   645
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   646
I would religiously avoid using words like "desparately" and "fear" in
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   647
the description people who approach the theory.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   648
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   649
I would remove the "literally" from the "flip-out" section unless ...
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   650
well ... yeah.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   651
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   652
-Marco
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   653
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   654
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   655
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   656
---------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   657
JAGS (Just Another Gaming System)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   658
a free, high-quality, universal system at:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   659
http://www.jagsrpg.org
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   660
*Just Released: JAGS Wonderland*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   661
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   662
*M. J. Young
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   663
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   664
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   665
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   666
Posts: 2126
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   667
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   668
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   669
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   670
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   671
<http://www.mjyoung.net/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   672
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   673
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90136#msg90136>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   674
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   675
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90136#msg90136>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   676
« *Reply #4 on:* November 11, 2003, 07:18:05 PM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   677
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   678
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   679
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   680
Wonderful document, Ron; I look forward to the completed piece.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   681
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   682
I think Ben's point was that this starts out as an explanation of GNS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   683
theory and then becomes a document about how to deal with people who
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   684
don't understand it. A solid concise explanation of the theory in
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   685
present form--a sort of revision of previous documents to incorporate
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   686
developments from forum discussions in a concise reference document--is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   687
definitely needed at this point (there are just too many places at which
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   688
we're saying, /read this article, but understand that the use of this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   689
word has changed since it was written/), but referring newcomers to a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   690
document which also discusses how to deal with newcomers isn't the best
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   691
approach.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   692
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   693
The latter half is also important; but it might work best if it were
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   694
changed from telling us how to do it to attempting to do it through example.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   695
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   696
I'll follow this thread with interest; unfortunately, I'm staring down
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   697
the barrel of a long away game at Rochester's UNY-con, so I'm going to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   698
miss several days of posts and have to catch up again--but I've managed
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   699
to catch up before, so it shouldn't be too problematic.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   700
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   701
--M. J. Young
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   702
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   703
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   704
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   705
Check out /Multiverser <http://www.mjyoung.net/publish/>/
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   706
M. J. Young Net <http://www.mjyoung.net/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   707
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   708
*Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   709
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   710
Global Moderator
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   711
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   712
*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   713
Posts: 12610
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   714
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   715
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   716
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   717
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   718
<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   719
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   720
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90156#msg90156>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   721
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   722
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90156#msg90156>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   723
« *Reply #5 on:* November 11, 2003, 09:00:16 PM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   724
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   725
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   726
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   727
Hello,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   728
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   729
Thanks folks! (Although "... excellent effort ..." isn't a phrase I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   730
associate with much merit, being a prof and all. Digression; ignore.)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   731
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   732
I should clarify: the eventual document I'm thinking about will
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   733
encompass only the first section, the model itself, and maybe a very
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   734
friendly section on rules/design, with examples of text. The current
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   735
post is not an outline for that document - it's intended to set up /our
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   736
/understanding, /now/, of what the hell I am trying to say.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   737
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   738
So don't worry about the eventual newcomer to the Forge and what that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   739
person may or may not think of some version of the post. Just read the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   740
post and tell me what does or doesn't make sense to /you/.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   741
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   742
Or rather, that's what I'm hoping for. If you want to contribute to the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   743
thread in some mind-opening fashion that I haven't anticipated, please
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   744
feel free.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   745
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   746
Best,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   747
Ron
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   748
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   749
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   750
*Eero Tuovinen
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   751
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2228>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   752
Acts of Evil Playtesters
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   753
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   754
*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   755
Posts: 974
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   756
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   757
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   758
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   759
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2228> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   760
<http://www.arkkikivi.net>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   761
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   762
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90166#msg90166>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   763
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   764
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90166#msg90166>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   765
« *Reply #6 on:* November 12, 2003, 12:36:10 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   766
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   767
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   768
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   769
Quote from: Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   770
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   771
So don't worry about the eventual newcomer to the Forge and what that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   772
person may or may not think of some version of the post. Just read the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   773
post and tell me what does or doesn't make sense to /you/.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   774
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   775
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   776
Makes perfect sense to me, I've been hoping for a concise overview of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   777
the main points in one place. I'd like to pick one specific place in the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   778
text that delighted me especially:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   779
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   780
Quote from: Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   781
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   782
Design, when all is said and done, means authorship of a rules text.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   783
"Rules" aren't part of the model any more. As I now see it, rules texts
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   784
are not and can never be "role-playing," but rather are recommendations
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   785
regarding the model, if you will, in hopes (shared by the readers) that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   786
people who read it can get that version of the model into action.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   787
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   788
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   789
This is something that has for a long time been a crucial part of my
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   790
personal interpretation of roleplaying texts. I absolutely love seeing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   791
it in writing by one of my favourite rpg theorists. I'm firmly convinced
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   792
that my first published game will carry the words "Guide to roleplaying
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   793
in [something]" on the cover.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   794
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   795
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   796
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   797
The latest publication of Arkenstone Publishing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   798
<http://www.arkkikivi.net>, my Finnish indie company:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   799
Piruja miehiksi <http://www.arkkikivi.net/pirujamiehiksi/>, Finnish
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   800
translation of /Dust Devils/
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   801
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   802
*Marco <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   803
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   804
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   805
Posts: 1732
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   806
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   807
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   808
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   809
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   810
<http://www.jagsrpg.org>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   811
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   812
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90191#msg90191>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   813
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   814
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90191#msg90191>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   815
« *Reply #7 on:* November 12, 2003, 08:07:47 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   816
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   817
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   818
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   819
By excellent effort, I meant "looks good, I'll have to put some real
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   820
analsis in to see how successful at hitting all of its goals I think it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   821
was--It'll take me some time." Not: 'nice try, try again.'
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   822
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   823
I think the post is (at least in proto-form) exactly what GNS needs.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   824
Splitting the content into a few documents is a good idea too. That
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   825
wasn't clear to me until you said it.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   826
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   827
On splitting them up:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   828
I would formally separate theory,  ramifications for game design, and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   829
utility and implementation from the basic theory meaning:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   830
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   831
1. Have a section on the theory very similar to the first part of what
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   832
is there, if not identical.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   833
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   834
2. Have a secion on GNS analysis of play (I'd be interesting in seeing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   835
what the purpose, value, and method of GNS analysis of play is)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   836
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   837
3. Have a section on "this is what I/we think the ramifications of GNS
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   838
are for game-design" (using what's up there)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   839
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   840
4. Have a secion on "Here's how I/we think this perspective could be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   841
used to help solve what I/we think are some common problems during
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   842
play." (with the perspective and vocabulary notes and a discussion of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   843
dysfunction seen from a GNS POV).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   844
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   845
This write up does most (or at least some) of this very well
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   846
already--separating them formally would help to see what pieces are seen
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   847
as theory and what pieces are seen as ramification or utility (I see the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   848
mxing of these as a major stumbling block to the understanding of GNS as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   849
a whole).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   850
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   851
Also:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   852
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   853
I need to carefully examine the arrows in the Venn Diagram. I get thay
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   854
they mean sort of "follow from" but I'm not sure how that's different
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   855
than "composed from."
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   856
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   857
And:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   858
For each section maybe a formal:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   859
*Description * [what's there]
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   860
*Example*: ["Fortune resolution, for example, rolling the dice to see if
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   861
an action is judged successful by the group is an example of a technique." ]
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   862
[/b]Definition of important terms[/b] [Karma, Drama, and Fortune,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   863
discussed in depth here are three major techniques for outcome resolution.]
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   864
*Caveats*: [Note: there has been discussion of GNS modes lining up with
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   865
resolution techniques so that one would say "Narrativist mode is best
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   866
facilitated by Drama Technique." While that may sound reasonable for a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   867
variety of reasons, examination of the that theory has shown it to be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   868
false. A given Drama technique might or might not be good for
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   869
Narrativist play-mode--but so might any other technique. Thus Techniques
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   870
are said to be node-agnostic."]
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   871
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   872
The Creative Agenda section isn't clear to me (which, I think is my
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   873
fault--I'm not saying it's not clear or poorly written). I'm not sure
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   874
who you're talking to when you say you're profoundly uninterested in
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   875
discussing nuances: me as someone reviewing the document or me as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   876
someone coming to it at the first time. If the latter, I'd change it. To
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   877
me that section looks like a placeholder for a real description of G/N/S
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   878
modes.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   879
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   880
Also: There's an issue of GNS as a description of play (we watched play
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   881
and this is what it looked like to us--we saw three basic categories).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   882
For me (and maybe only me) there's a lot of question about that (as I've
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   883
said, from an internal standpoint the theory makes a lot of sense to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   884
me--from an observational standpoint, it's not as clear to me).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   885
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   886
A discussion of that in the Creative Agenda session would be good (I see
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   887
the three essays speaking to internal intent--I don't know what
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   888
step-on-up looks like distinct from exploration of situation and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   889
character but I can tell when I'm doing it--and maybe no one has a clear
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   890
textual discription (although I'd be surprised if that's the case)--but
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   891
addressing that would help with the GNS-is-about-intent/no-it-isn't issue).
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   892
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   893
-Marco
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   894
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   895
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   896
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   897
---------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   898
JAGS (Just Another Gaming System)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   899
a free, high-quality, universal system at:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   900
http://www.jagsrpg.org
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   901
*Just Released: JAGS Wonderland*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   902
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   903
*The GM <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1821>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   904
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   905
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   906
Posts: 58
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   907
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   908
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   909
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   910
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1821>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   911
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   912
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90196#msg90196>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   913
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   914
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90196#msg90196>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   915
« *Reply #8 on:* November 12, 2003, 08:20:09 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   916
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   917
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   918
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   919
Ron says:
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   920
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   921
>>(snip) I'd especially like to talk about combinations of Ephemera
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   922
relative to one or more Techniques, and combinations of Techniques
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   923
relative to one or more categories within Creative Agenda.<<
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   924
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   925
Neato. This (I think) is what I?ve been trying to get some input about,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   926
although I didn?t say it quite like this in my recent thread.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   927
Specifically, I?m looking for hard and fast guidelines to facilitate
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   928
this ?stuff? in such a manner that it fits our troupe?s style of agreed
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   929
play. Now, is that goal realistic considering the vast potential for
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   930
various in game outcomes when you start mixing and matching all of these
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   931
elements together? I firmly think so, although I may not know how to do
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   932
that just yet. This is why I?ve been taking a hard look at communication
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   933
techniques that would yield specific results (those results being ?the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   934
game? that we?ve all agreed we want to play.)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   935
I know that in RL, certain words used in a certain order will result in
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   936
a very specific outcome. Politicians are masters of what we typically
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   937
call spin. For instance, if you hear a politician say, ?If we do not win
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   938
the war on terror abroad at all costs, then we will become victims of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   939
fear in our own homes, our country will falter.? What he?s really just
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   940
done is employed a conversation technique called a Closing Triplicate of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   941
Choice. Really, when you hear that, what automatically happens is that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   942
you run through the options and pick the lesser of the evils. ?Hmmm?I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   943
don?t want to be a victim; I don?t want the country to falter, so I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   944
guess we have to win the war at all costs.? That way of conversing is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   945
designed to put your mind in a specific frame of thinking. This kind of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   946
communication is far from new, but it works to provoke a specific
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   947
response, (in this example, support for an agenda.) Could the same be
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   948
done for creating an atmosphere where a game stays on track? Again, I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   949
think so.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   950
Now, I?m not saying that I want to have to use a script to run or play
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   951
in a game. Blah, boring. It would, however, be helpful to have something
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   952
firm to refer back to in order to keep a game from identity crisis.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   953
I think about this topic a lot lately.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   954
;)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   955
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   956
I'll be interested to follow this discussion and see where it leads.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   957
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   958
Warm Regards,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   959
Lisa
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   960
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   961
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   962
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   963
Warm Regards,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   964
Lisa
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   965
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   966
*Ben Lehman
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   967
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   968
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   969
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   970
Posts: 1464
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   971
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   972
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   973
<callto://benlehman/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   974
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   975
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   976
<http://www.tao-games.com/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   977
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   978
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90210#msg90210>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   979
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   980
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90210#msg90210>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   981
« *Reply #9 on:* November 12, 2003, 09:30:26 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   982
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   983
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   984
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   985
Quote from: Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   986
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   987
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   988
2) I think that discussion of Ephemera is VERY important, because it is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   989
where the rubber hits the road in terms of actual play. Saying that it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   990
should all "be a discussion of techniques" seems a little strange to me.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   991
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   992
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   993
I'm not sure you're representing my view correctly. Don't I say, at one
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   994
point, that I'm interested in discussing combinations of Ephemera and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   995
how they represent or affect Technique? Seems like that would satisfy
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   996
your outlook. I can't see anywhere that I say "Techniques are the only
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   997
thing to discuss."
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   998
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
   999
As for what level is most important, I guess I'll have to say it now: no
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1000
one of these levels is /The /Level for discussing role-playing. It's
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1001
/all /role-playing. I bet this is going to be one of these things I have
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1002
to say over and over and over.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1003
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1004
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1005
BL>  Yup.  Imagine so.  On reread, I think I misread some stuff.  Apologies.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1006
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1007
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1008
3) The particular layout of this explanation (as a manual for an
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1009
apologist {in the Catholic sense}) is slightly disturbing to me. I would
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1010
change it if you want this to be a reference document for people who do
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1011
not understand your theory, which it is excellent at doing.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1012
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1013
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1014
I have no idea what you're talking about. Not a bit. Rather than
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1015
immediately explaining, are you sure this is something worth discussing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1016
in the first place? I mean, before everyone gets their oars into the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1017
water regarding the basic points?
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1018
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1019
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1020
BL>  Your own later posts regarding the "mission objectives" of this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1021
layout cleared things up a bit.  MJ expressed my viewpoint much better
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1022
than I ever could.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1023
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1024
yrs--
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1025
--Ben
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1026
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1027
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1028
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1029
These are our Games <http://www.tao-games.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1030
This is my Blog <http://benlehman.thesmerf.com/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1031
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1032
*Ron Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1033
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1034
Global Moderator
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1035
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1036
*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1037
Posts: 12610
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1038
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1039
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1040
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1041
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1042
<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1043
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1044
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90215#msg90215>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1045
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1046
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90215#msg90215>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1047
« *Reply #10 on:* November 12, 2003, 09:47:34 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1048
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1049
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1050
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1051
Hello,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1052
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1053
Further reflection has clarified my own goals for this thread.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1054
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1055
You know, I think that I'm not interested in suggestions for editing and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1056
presenting. That was a bad thing even to mention.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1057
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1058
I'm interested in whether /you/, the Forge folks, understand what I'm
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1059
saying. If there's anything you need clarified about the model as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1060
presented, or anything you think doesn't hold up, then now's the time to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1061
say it.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1062
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1063
I'm very committed to reviewing and refining the material in the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1064
Discussing the Model section. Those are phrased as recommendations for a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1065
reason, and presented in the post for a reason. I would very much like
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1066
to get confirmation and/or attempts at refutation about all seven of the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1067
points.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1068
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1069
I don't mind mentioning that quibbles about internal issues of Creative
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1070
Agenda are right out the window. I'm profoundly sick of GNS talk,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1071
frankly. I'm convinced that once the model as a whole is better
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1072
understood, then dozens upon dozens of "GNS issues" will simply evaporate.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1073
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1074
I'm specifically interested in whether Creative Agenda, as the bridge
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1075
from [Social Contract [Exploration]] to [Techniques], is acceptable as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1076
an absolute necessity in understanding role-playing. Realize that this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1077
claim was and is absolutely anathema among most vocal participants and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1078
publishers in the hobby.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1079
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1080
I'm also interested in what I mentioned in the essay about
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1081
Techniques-to-Creative Agenda, and Ephemera-to-Techniques. Lisa's post
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1082
is, in my view, the most valuable one so far to develop in this thread.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1083
I have plenty of thoughts on this issue and would appreciate some input
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1084
about yours.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1085
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1086
So from now on, please, no more editing or presentation suggestions.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1087
Talk about the material. This thread is not about what some hypothetical
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1088
other people will think and feel about the model, but about /you/. Say,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1089
"YES, I AGREE, ESPECIALLY ABOUT X," or, "NO, YOU MAKE NO SENSE AND
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1090
HERE'S WHY," or "GEE, WHAT ABOUT THIS PART HERE." That sort of thing.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1091
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1092
Without that kind of dialogue for a while, I'm considering closing up
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1093
the whole forum. That's not a threat, but rather a statement that I
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1094
don't see any point to public/forum GNS-wrangling without a strong and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1095
easily-reinforced shared understanding of the big picture.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1096
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1097
Best,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1098
Ron
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1099
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1100
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1101
*Valamir <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=36>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1102
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1103
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1104
Posts: 4859
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1105
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1106
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1107
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1108
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=36> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1109
<http://www.ramshead.indie-rpgs.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1110
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1111
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90219#msg90219>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1112
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1113
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90219#msg90219>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1114
« *Reply #11 on:* November 12, 2003, 10:08:33 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1115
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1116
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1117
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1118
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1119
I'm specifically interested in whether Creative Agenda, as the bridge
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1120
from [Social Contract [Exploration]] to [Techniques], is acceptable as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1121
an absolute necessity in understanding role-playing. Realize that this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1122
claim was and is absolutely anathema among most vocal participants and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1123
publishers in the hobby.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1124
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1125
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1126
I think you rightly point out that this is the crux of the entire model.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1127
 I don't think you'll find anyone who games (even without spending much
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1128
time thinking about it) who will disagree with the idea that social
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1129
issues impact game experience.  I don't think you'll find anyone who
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1130
hasn't found mechanics and techniques that work profoundly well (and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1131
others that work poorly) to deliver the kind of game they want.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1132
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1133
The issue then is this idea of a Creative Agenda beyond simply "having
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1134
fun sharing a hobby with my friends" and much deeper than "I don't like
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1135
dice pool mechanics or hard scene framing".
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1136
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1137
I think the fact of the existance of "something" going on in that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1138
Creative Agenda space is pretty irrefutable.  Enjoying RPGs must require
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1139
something more than the sum of Social conciderations plus Techniques or
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1140
there wouldn't continue to be dysfunctional play.  If all that is
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1141
required is selecting some powerful favorite techniques and then making
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1142
sure everyone at the table is on good civil terms and committed to each
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1143
others enjoyment...then nearly every game would be a rageing success.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1144
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1145
Clearly there's something else going on there, and for purposes of this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1146
model we call that something else "Creative Agenda".
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1147
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1148
I'm particularly impressed with the fact that this format of
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1149
presentation (speaking of the article overall here) is quite powerful at
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1150
identifying and seperating out the component part.  At being able to set
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1151
aside the specifics of the component parts altogether and just talk
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1152
about the processes of the model.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1153
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1154
This enables us to look at and "approve" (if you will) of the overall
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1155
framework of the model, without getting caught up (again, and again, and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1156
again) in debating trivial nuance ad naseum (guilty).  It focuses
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1157
attention on the "forest" so we can all agree that we are, indeed,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1158
looking at a forest, before delving deep into the individual trees.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1159
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1160
I'm envisioning the final version of this document as a sort of master
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1161
article that we can be reasonably confident is about as final and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1162
finished as likely to get.  Each box on the Venn can then be hyperlinked
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1163
to an article talking deeper about each item, and ideally serve as a
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1164
place to list links to appropriate threads on the topic.  In this way
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1165
the sub articles can be more easily updated to reflect "current thinking
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1166
on the nature of Techniques.  See also <these 6 threads> for additional
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1167
thoughts and the development of the concepts.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1168
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1169
To make Mike happy these sub articles could be ideal to set up as a Wiki
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1170
where it becomes trivial for various parties to submit links and add to
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1171
content (supposedly...I can't figure the think out), with links from
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1172
them to other articles (such as the 3 GNS ones, etc.)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1173
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1174
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1175
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1176
Ralph Mazza
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1177
Universalis:  The Game of Unlimited Stories
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1178
<http://www.ramshead.indie-rpgs.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1179
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1180
*C. Edwards
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1181
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=354>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1182
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1183
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1184
Posts: 540
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1185
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1186
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1187
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1188
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=354> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1189
<http://www.livejournal.com/users/thickenergy/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1190
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1191
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90221#msg90221>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1192
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1193
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90221#msg90221>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1194
« *Reply #12 on:* November 12, 2003, 10:19:40 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1195
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1196
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1197
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1198
Hey Ron,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1199
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1200
Looks great to me. It's nice to see so much of the current thought all
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1201
together on the same page. I particularly like that you repeatedly point
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1202
out that System reaches down and through the lower level boxes. (I've
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1203
been thinking of it like the funnel of a tornado.)
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1204
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1205
Oh, have you considered changing the name of the model? The current
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1206
moniker seems to cause quite a bit of focus on particulars of Creative
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1207
Agenda, often resulting in tunnel-vision in regards to the model as a whole.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1208
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1209
-Chris
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1210
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1211
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1212
*Lxndr <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1659>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1213
Acts of Evil Playtesters
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1214
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1215
*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1216
Posts: 1026
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1217
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1218
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1219
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1220
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1659> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1221
<http://www.twistedconfessions.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1222
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1223
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90225#msg90225>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1224
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1225
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90225#msg90225>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1226
« *Reply #13 on:* November 12, 2003, 10:54:07 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1227
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1228
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1229
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1230
I am very glad to see "Creative Agenda" replace "G/N/S".  Granted, I'm
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1231
aware G/N/S is still a popular construction, but your new Venn Diagram
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1232
allows for alternative theories on Creative Agenda in particular (like
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1233
the ever-popular "Beeg Horseshoe") without implicit contradiction.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1234
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1235
That said, I agree with Chris that it'd be nice to see the entire theory
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1236
no longer be called "the GNS model" since, well, the name itself brings
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1237
an unhealthy amount of focus on that one part of the model...
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1238
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1239
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1240
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1241
Alexander Cherry, Master of the Inkstained Robes
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1242
Twisted Confessions Game Design <http://www.twistedconfessions.com>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1243
Moderator of Indie Netgaming
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1244
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indie-netgaming/>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1245
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1246
*Matt Snyder
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1247
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=234>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1248
Member
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1249
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1250
Posts: 1142
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1251
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1253
View Profile
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1254
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=234> WWW
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1255
<http://www.chimera.info>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1256
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
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<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90232#msg90232>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1258
*The whole model - this is it
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1259
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.msg90232#msg90232>*
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1260
« *Reply #14 on:* November 12, 2003, 11:19:39 AM »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1261
	
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1264
Quote
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1265
I'm specifically interested in whether Creative Agenda, as the bridge
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1266
from [Social Contract [Exploration]] to [Techniques], is acceptable as
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1267
an absolute necessity in understanding role-playing. Realize that this
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1268
claim was and is absolutely anathema among most vocal participants and
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1269
publishers in the hobby.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1270
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1272
Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. In light of my own group's recent
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1273
discussions, this was the key issue. While I don't expect my fellow
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1274
group members to be able right now to write an essay on Creative Agenda,
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1275
I do think they have recognized their right and need to understand just
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1276
what /exactly/ it is we as a group are going to sit down and do for our
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1277
enjoyment.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1278
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1279
I'll say that again. Each /person/ who choses to play a role-playing
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1280
game with other people has a /right/ to understand just what it is that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1281
he will be doing when the group actually plays the game. Similarly, with
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1282
right comes responsibility. It is a person's responsibility to recognize
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1283
what his group's Creative Agenda is. Failure to do so absurdly risks
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1284
one's enjoyment, and one's right to enjoyment.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1285
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1286
While many publishers aren't, to my mind, openly fighting against that
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1287
right, what they are doing is either clumsily ignoring that right OR
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1288
disingenuinely undermining that right with inconsistent positions on
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1289
what the /act/ of role-playing is versus the /act/ of maintaining the
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1290
industry and/or culture is.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1291
	Logged
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1294
Matt Snyder
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1295
www.chimera.info <http://www.chimera.info>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1296
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1297
"The future ain't what it used to be."
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1298
--Yogi Berra
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1299
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1300
*Pages:* [*1*] 2
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1301
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.15> 3
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1302
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.30> * ... *5
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1303
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.60> 	Print
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1304
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=8655.0> 
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1305
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1306
« previous
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1307
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655.0;prev_next=prev>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1308
next »
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1309
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8655;prev_next=next>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1310
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1311
Jump to:  
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1312
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1314
Powered by MySQL <http://www.mysql.com/> Powered by PHP
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1315
<http://www.php.net/> 	The Forge | Powered by SMF 1.0.5
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1316
<http://www.simplemachines.org/>.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1317
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media <http://www.lewismedia.com/>. All Rights Reserved.
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1318
*Oxygen* design by Bloc <http://www.bloczone.net> 	Valid XHTML 1.0!
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1319
<http://validator.w3.org/check/referer> Valid CSS!
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
diff changeset
  1320
<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer>
bdef1afd1170 [svn] r2271@freebird: fabien | 2006-08-30 21:33:34 -0400
fabien
parents:
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  1321