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   rewards                                                           >>

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   Author     Topic: GNS and player rewards  (Read 1480 times)

    [44]JMendes   [47][IMG]  [48]GNS and player rewards

    Member                   << on: October 31, 2002, 01:21:08 PM >>

    Posts: 187    ----------------------------------------------------

    [45]View      Hi, all, :)

    Profile

    [46]Personal  Appols if this has been asked and answered (in which

    Message       case check out this thread replies are appreciated).

    (Offline)

                  Anyway, how does one reward players in the various

                  GNS modes?

                  (Ex. would be: a gamist mode rewards a player by

                  awarding character advancement; or, a gamist mode

                  rewards a player by tallying problems successfully

                  solved, thus allowing said player to bask under the

                  glory of said tally; or something else entirely...)

                  Cheers,

                  J.

                                                            [49]Logged

                  ----------------------------------------------------

                  João Mendes

                  Lisbon, Portugal

    [50]M. J.                 [59]GNS and player rewards

    Young           [58][IMG] << Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002,

    Member                    06:15:17 PM >>

    Posts: 2123     --------------------------------------------------

    [51]1735114     It's not so cut-and-dried as that, I think.

    [52]MarkJYoung  There's a sense in which the rewards can be almost

    [53]tiras1      anything and fit any type of play; it's more a

    [54]View        matter of how they're earned than what they

    Profile         are--although yes, there are some rewards that fit

    [55]WWW         some kinds of play better. But maybe I can provide

    [56]Email       an outrageous example.

    [57]Personal

    Message         Multiverser has no "reward system" at all; there

    (Offline)       is a sense in which nothing is rewarded and

                    nothing is given as a reward. Yet people play it,

                    and find rewards, because the rewards are inherent

                    to the experience.

                      [*]To the Gamist, the ultimate reward is that

                      feeling that you just won, that you beat the

                      odds or overcame the enemy or solved the problem

                      in a significant way. I'm currently playing in a

                      Multiverser game in which I was engaged in a

                      battle of magic (and my character was completely

                      new to magic, making it up as he went along).

                      The attacker fled; the attacker's conjured

                      assassin was driven away. I had beaten the

                      enemy, I had won the conflict. The gamist reward

                      here is phenomenal.

                      [*]To the Simulationist, reward is a lot more

                      subtle. It involves feeling like you've entered

                      another reality, in some sense, that you've

                      explored a possibility and discovered something

                      about it. In that same game world, my background

                      in law convinced the local prince to assign me

                      the rather complex task of organizing his

                      judicial system and creating a legislature as a

                      way to bring his medieval princedom toward a

                      modern democratic citystate. I've spent quite a

                      bit of time figuring out how to organize a dozen

                      judges into a tiered judicial system with an

                      emphasis on precedent, and more on devising a

                      bicameral legislature in which one house

                      represents the fading nobility and the other the

                      mostly illiterate peasantry (how do you arrange

                      elections for representatives when the

                      electorate can't read and write?). I'm watching

                      the world evolve, and I'm involved in the center

                      of it. There is a great reward in being part of

                      something like this.

                      [*]To the Narrativist--well, there are a lot of

                      ways to say it that will lead someone to object

                      to the terminology, but let me suggest that the

                      reward for narrativists is the creation of

                      something of a morality play; that is, we've

                      created a story which is about an issue. In that

                      same world, the man who appointed me his head

                      justice required that I "swear fealty" to him,

                      and I in essence did so: I told him that I

                      didn't promise not to argue with him, but in the

                      end I would recognize he had the right to decide

                      what the law was. But this man has closed all

                      the churches in the princedom. It was his

                      opinion that the religious people were fighting

                      with each other to the detriment of the

                      community, so he made public religious ceremony

                      illegal. My character is very religious; and

                      since he has taken his position he has

                      discovered that one of the major religious

                      groups which have been "shut down" is

                      essentially agreed with his own faith. He is now

                      in a position in which he has sworn obligations

                      to uphold a law that could easily be used to

                      persecute people who share his religious

                      beliefs, which indeed could be used to accuse

                      his self of treason. The tension here is a

                      wonderful narrativist premise, as the character

                      must wrestle with whether he can serve as the

                      chief jurist in a legal system that oppresses

                      his own faith, or whether he can from his

                      position of limited authority make it possible

                      for that faith (and others?) to continue to be

                      practiced and encouraged in the city despite the

                      strictures placed upon it. The reward here comes

                      from resolving those tensions in one direction

                      or another. Narrativist rewards can in some ways

                      be the most interesting. My character could be

                      the deliverer who puts the crack in the wall

                      that ultimately admits the flood, such that the

                      prince is forced to permit faith again to be

                      expressed and practiced openly. He could instead

                      be the martyr whose death galvinizes the people

                      to stand up for their freedom. There are great

                      story possibilities here, and the realization of

                      those story possibilities is itself the

                      reward.[/list:u]

                      Now, there's a lot of talk about how mechanical

                      reward systems can be gamist, narrativist, or

                      simulationist; but what that means ultimately is

                      that the rewards encourage one kind of

                      play--they are given for actions of a particular

                      type, and/or they are in a currency which can be

                      used for actions of a particular type.

                         [*]A character earns experience points for

                         beating the odds, whether that's for killing

                         monsters, solving riddles, capturing enemy

                         spies, disarming explosives, or any other

                         in-game challenge. That experience is then

                         spent to make him better at killing monsters,

                         solving riddles, capturing enemy spies,

                         disarming explosives, or some other in-game

                         challenge. This is a palpably gamist reward

                         system, because rewards are given to

                         reinforce the inherent reward of winning, and

                         are a type which help the character win over

                         greater odds in the future.

                         [*]A player recognizes that his character has

                         values which could easily be brought into

                         conflict. He moves that character into a

                         place where the conflict will be forced upon

                         the character, where he will have to choose

                         between one value and another, and in doing

                         so is given a credit. He may then use the

                         credit to purchase something to add to play

                         that will help resolve this conflict one way

                         or the other, such as bringing another

                         character into the scene, or placing a

                         previously unmentioned object within reach.

                         This is an arguably narrativist reward

                         system, because it gives rewards for the

                         creation of premise-enhancing situations

                         which are of a type which helps the player

                         advance the core of the story. (This is more

                         difficult, as a very similar reward system

                         could be used in a simulationist exploration

                         of character/situation game; it's just the

                         best I could produce at the moment.)

                         [*]A character in a new city takes a job as a

                         stablehand. The player puts effort into

                         describing the life and activities of a

                         stablehand, and his character's feelings

                         about this; he controls the character to be a

                         good stablehand. A tally is kept of the time

                         he spends at this activity, with extra

                         credits for doing it well. When a

                         predetermined score is reached, the owner of

                         the stable approaches the character and

                         offers to promote him to work as a groom.

                         This is arguably a simulationist reward

                         system, as the rewards are given for playing

                         appropriately in the context of the setting

                         and lead to new opportunities to explore

                         other aspects of the setting.

                         [/list:u]

                         There are countless ways to do reward systems

                         for each sort of play. I suspect that the way

                         to get at it, though, is to begin with an

                         idea of how the game works without any reward

                         system at all, to determine what sort of play

                         you want to encourage, and then create a

                         reward system which gives the players

                         currency in response to the sort of actions

                         desired which can be spent to make possible

                         more of that sort of actions.

                         Does that make sense?

                         (And anyone who wants to suggest a better

                         example of a narrativist reward system--or

                         any other--please do so.)

                         --M. J. Young

                                                            [60]Logged

                    --------------------------------------------------

                    Check out [61]Multiverser

                    [62]M. J. Young Net

    [63]Cassidy             [67]GNS and player rewards

    Member        [66][IMG] << Reply #2 on: November 02, 2002,

                            11:04:29 AM >>

    Posts: 165

                  ----------------------------------------------------

    [64]View

    Profile       Quote from: M. J. Young

    [65]Personal  Does that make sense?

    Message

    (Offline)     Absolutely.

                  For me, the key to rewarding players is essentially

                  knowing what their premise is and making sure that

                  it's fulfilled.

                  I can only relate my own experiences but for players

                  with a narrative slant I very often let them assume

                  the role of significant NPCs in the game.

                  Mercenary Leader, Religious Zealot, Cowardly

                  Nobleman, you name it, I've had them play it.

                  It obviously takes a lot of setting up and

                  discussion one-on-one with the player concerned

                  prior to play which in itself is rewarding for the

                  players concerned.

                  For players coming from a simulationist angle, if

                  the setting, characters, conflicts and situations

                  within the game are engaging enough and really grab

                  their interest then playing becomes it's own reward.

                  The players like that in my group really don't give

                  a hoot about experience points, story points or

                  whatever in fact I never use experience points as

                  such.

                  The odd ad-hoc change in an ability from time to

                  time as a consequence of a characters experiences in

                  the game works well enough. It makes sense to me and

                  more importantly it makes sense to the players. It's

                  never a player initiated thing, it's just something

                  that I mention to the player in passing when I feel

                  the change is warranted. The player  modifies their

                  character sheet and thats all there is to it.

                  The problem I have most is satisfying players with a

                  gamist premise.

                  Winning and losing in RPGs is something that I've

                  never been able to get my head around. Maybe it's

                  just my own experience but the players in my group

                  who play the the game from a gamist standpoint only

                  seem to come alive when there is something to hit.

                  They really appear to have little interest in

                  exploring the setting or involving themselves in

                  situations that don't have an element of combat

                  associated to them.

                  The only reward they are interested in is

                  "improvement" of their characters abilities and a

                  desire for more combat in the game.

                  Combat for combat's sake bores me. Unless the

                  characters are in a truly threatening situation and

                  they stand a real chance of dying then it appears to

                  be a real waste of time. I can't do that every

                  session.

                  Conversely, a session without combat is often seen

                  as boring or unrewarding certain players in my

                  group.

                  I do run my games primarily from a

                  simulation/narrative angle and I do introduce combat

                  intensive scenes as a means of presenting the group

                  with a dramatic life or death situation.

                  I just feel that I can't satisfy the players in my

                  group who play from an apparently gamist standpoint

                  because I think the type of game they want to play

                  isn't really the type of game I want to run.

                                                            [68]Logged

    [69]MK                  [73]GNS and player rewards

    Snyder        [72][IMG] << Reply #3 on: November 02, 2002,

    Member                  07:32:32 PM >>

    Posts: 116    ----------------------------------------------------

    [70]View      I think that given an awareness of what style of

    Profile       play is most satisfying to the player, and having

    [71]Personal  the play tailored to that style by the GM or group

    Message       or at least respectfully ackowledged as a desire and

    (Offline)     given a share of the session form and focus (turns),

                  that players are rewarded by play itself.

                  Conflict and frustration are lessened as players are

                  not attempting to force/encourage one another into

                  playing to misunderstood and possibly conflicting

                  standards.

                  It enhances the process of play. Mechanical/ design

                  changes may not be necessary.

                  In other words... if the players are having more fun

                  because what they like to happen is happening, they

                  don't need no steenkin XP's to sweeten it.

                                                            [74]Logged

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