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Author Topic: GNS and player rewards (Read 1480 times)
[44]JMendes [47][IMG] [48]GNS and player rewards
Member << on: October 31, 2002, 01:21:08 PM >>
Posts: 187 ----------------------------------------------------
[45]View Hi, all, :)
Profile
[46]Personal Appols if this has been asked and answered (in which
Message case check out this thread replies are appreciated).
(Offline)
Anyway, how does one reward players in the various
GNS modes?
(Ex. would be: a gamist mode rewards a player by
awarding character advancement; or, a gamist mode
rewards a player by tallying problems successfully
solved, thus allowing said player to bask under the
glory of said tally; or something else entirely...)
Cheers,
J.
[49]Logged
----------------------------------------------------
João Mendes
Lisbon, Portugal
[50]M. J. [59]GNS and player rewards
Young [58][IMG] << Reply #1 on: October 31, 2002,
Member 06:15:17 PM >>
Posts: 2123 --------------------------------------------------
[51]1735114 It's not so cut-and-dried as that, I think.
[52]MarkJYoung There's a sense in which the rewards can be almost
[53]tiras1 anything and fit any type of play; it's more a
[54]View matter of how they're earned than what they
Profile are--although yes, there are some rewards that fit
[55]WWW some kinds of play better. But maybe I can provide
[56]Email an outrageous example.
[57]Personal
Message Multiverser has no "reward system" at all; there
(Offline) is a sense in which nothing is rewarded and
nothing is given as a reward. Yet people play it,
and find rewards, because the rewards are inherent
to the experience.
[*]To the Gamist, the ultimate reward is that
feeling that you just won, that you beat the
odds or overcame the enemy or solved the problem
in a significant way. I'm currently playing in a
Multiverser game in which I was engaged in a
battle of magic (and my character was completely
new to magic, making it up as he went along).
The attacker fled; the attacker's conjured
assassin was driven away. I had beaten the
enemy, I had won the conflict. The gamist reward
here is phenomenal.
[*]To the Simulationist, reward is a lot more
subtle. It involves feeling like you've entered
another reality, in some sense, that you've
explored a possibility and discovered something
about it. In that same game world, my background
in law convinced the local prince to assign me
the rather complex task of organizing his
judicial system and creating a legislature as a
way to bring his medieval princedom toward a
modern democratic citystate. I've spent quite a
bit of time figuring out how to organize a dozen
judges into a tiered judicial system with an
emphasis on precedent, and more on devising a
bicameral legislature in which one house
represents the fading nobility and the other the
mostly illiterate peasantry (how do you arrange
elections for representatives when the
electorate can't read and write?). I'm watching
the world evolve, and I'm involved in the center
of it. There is a great reward in being part of
something like this.
[*]To the Narrativist--well, there are a lot of
ways to say it that will lead someone to object
to the terminology, but let me suggest that the
reward for narrativists is the creation of
something of a morality play; that is, we've
created a story which is about an issue. In that
same world, the man who appointed me his head
justice required that I "swear fealty" to him,
and I in essence did so: I told him that I
didn't promise not to argue with him, but in the
end I would recognize he had the right to decide
what the law was. But this man has closed all
the churches in the princedom. It was his
opinion that the religious people were fighting
with each other to the detriment of the
community, so he made public religious ceremony
illegal. My character is very religious; and
since he has taken his position he has
discovered that one of the major religious
groups which have been "shut down" is
essentially agreed with his own faith. He is now
in a position in which he has sworn obligations
to uphold a law that could easily be used to
persecute people who share his religious
beliefs, which indeed could be used to accuse
his self of treason. The tension here is a
wonderful narrativist premise, as the character
must wrestle with whether he can serve as the
chief jurist in a legal system that oppresses
his own faith, or whether he can from his
position of limited authority make it possible
for that faith (and others?) to continue to be
practiced and encouraged in the city despite the
strictures placed upon it. The reward here comes
from resolving those tensions in one direction
or another. Narrativist rewards can in some ways
be the most interesting. My character could be
the deliverer who puts the crack in the wall
that ultimately admits the flood, such that the
prince is forced to permit faith again to be
expressed and practiced openly. He could instead
be the martyr whose death galvinizes the people
to stand up for their freedom. There are great
story possibilities here, and the realization of
those story possibilities is itself the
reward.[/list:u]
Now, there's a lot of talk about how mechanical
reward systems can be gamist, narrativist, or
simulationist; but what that means ultimately is
that the rewards encourage one kind of
play--they are given for actions of a particular
type, and/or they are in a currency which can be
used for actions of a particular type.
[*]A character earns experience points for
beating the odds, whether that's for killing
monsters, solving riddles, capturing enemy
spies, disarming explosives, or any other
in-game challenge. That experience is then
spent to make him better at killing monsters,
solving riddles, capturing enemy spies,
disarming explosives, or some other in-game
challenge. This is a palpably gamist reward
system, because rewards are given to
reinforce the inherent reward of winning, and
are a type which help the character win over
greater odds in the future.
[*]A player recognizes that his character has
values which could easily be brought into
conflict. He moves that character into a
place where the conflict will be forced upon
the character, where he will have to choose
between one value and another, and in doing
so is given a credit. He may then use the
credit to purchase something to add to play
that will help resolve this conflict one way
or the other, such as bringing another
character into the scene, or placing a
previously unmentioned object within reach.
This is an arguably narrativist reward
system, because it gives rewards for the
creation of premise-enhancing situations
which are of a type which helps the player
advance the core of the story. (This is more
difficult, as a very similar reward system
could be used in a simulationist exploration
of character/situation game; it's just the
best I could produce at the moment.)
[*]A character in a new city takes a job as a
stablehand. The player puts effort into
describing the life and activities of a
stablehand, and his character's feelings
about this; he controls the character to be a
good stablehand. A tally is kept of the time
he spends at this activity, with extra
credits for doing it well. When a
predetermined score is reached, the owner of
the stable approaches the character and
offers to promote him to work as a groom.
This is arguably a simulationist reward
system, as the rewards are given for playing
appropriately in the context of the setting
and lead to new opportunities to explore
other aspects of the setting.
[/list:u]
There are countless ways to do reward systems
for each sort of play. I suspect that the way
to get at it, though, is to begin with an
idea of how the game works without any reward
system at all, to determine what sort of play
you want to encourage, and then create a
reward system which gives the players
currency in response to the sort of actions
desired which can be spent to make possible
more of that sort of actions.
Does that make sense?
(And anyone who wants to suggest a better
example of a narrativist reward system--or
any other--please do so.)
--M. J. Young
[60]Logged
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Check out [61]Multiverser
[62]M. J. Young Net
[63]Cassidy [67]GNS and player rewards
Member [66][IMG] << Reply #2 on: November 02, 2002,
11:04:29 AM >>
Posts: 165
----------------------------------------------------
[64]View
Profile Quote from: M. J. Young
[65]Personal Does that make sense?
Message
(Offline) Absolutely.
For me, the key to rewarding players is essentially
knowing what their premise is and making sure that
it's fulfilled.
I can only relate my own experiences but for players
with a narrative slant I very often let them assume
the role of significant NPCs in the game.
Mercenary Leader, Religious Zealot, Cowardly
Nobleman, you name it, I've had them play it.
It obviously takes a lot of setting up and
discussion one-on-one with the player concerned
prior to play which in itself is rewarding for the
players concerned.
For players coming from a simulationist angle, if
the setting, characters, conflicts and situations
within the game are engaging enough and really grab
their interest then playing becomes it's own reward.
The players like that in my group really don't give
a hoot about experience points, story points or
whatever in fact I never use experience points as
such.
The odd ad-hoc change in an ability from time to
time as a consequence of a characters experiences in
the game works well enough. It makes sense to me and
more importantly it makes sense to the players. It's
never a player initiated thing, it's just something
that I mention to the player in passing when I feel
the change is warranted. The player modifies their
character sheet and thats all there is to it.
The problem I have most is satisfying players with a
gamist premise.
Winning and losing in RPGs is something that I've
never been able to get my head around. Maybe it's
just my own experience but the players in my group
who play the the game from a gamist standpoint only
seem to come alive when there is something to hit.
They really appear to have little interest in
exploring the setting or involving themselves in
situations that don't have an element of combat
associated to them.
The only reward they are interested in is
"improvement" of their characters abilities and a
desire for more combat in the game.
Combat for combat's sake bores me. Unless the
characters are in a truly threatening situation and
they stand a real chance of dying then it appears to
be a real waste of time. I can't do that every
session.
Conversely, a session without combat is often seen
as boring or unrewarding certain players in my
group.
I do run my games primarily from a
simulation/narrative angle and I do introduce combat
intensive scenes as a means of presenting the group
with a dramatic life or death situation.
I just feel that I can't satisfy the players in my
group who play from an apparently gamist standpoint
because I think the type of game they want to play
isn't really the type of game I want to run.
[68]Logged
[69]MK [73]GNS and player rewards
Snyder [72][IMG] << Reply #3 on: November 02, 2002,
Member 07:32:32 PM >>
Posts: 116 ----------------------------------------------------
[70]View I think that given an awareness of what style of
Profile play is most satisfying to the player, and having
[71]Personal the play tailored to that style by the GM or group
Message or at least respectfully ackowledged as a desire and
(Offline) given a share of the session form and focus (turns),
that players are rewarded by play itself.
Conflict and frustration are lessened as players are
not attempting to force/encourage one another into
playing to misunderstood and possibly conflicting
standards.
It enhances the process of play. Mechanical/ design
changes may not be necessary.
In other words... if the players are having more fun
because what they like to happen is happening, they
don't need no steenkin XP's to sweeten it.
[74]Logged
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