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Author Topic: Part III: Being the Difference Between Players &
Gamemasters (Read 1163 times)
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*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
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« * on:* December 27, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 30th, 2001 -
At the behest of my friends here on the Forge, I will present
Scattershot at the point I have it. Even though this is a
work-in-progress, I am not trying to present a diary of the progress.
Expect the lead component of this thread to undergo changes as
Scattershot does. This edition was originally put together on Thursday,
December 27th, 2001. This series of articles will detail strictly the
mechanics of Scattershot, articles relating to the techniques of 'how to
play' will have to wait until I have more of them centralized and
organized. The third major component of the game, the setting and genre
material is will be addressed once I get a new batch of playtesters.
In this installment, I am going to discuss how Scattershot initially
treats the difference between gamemasters and players. This is not
because the differences are important to stress, but in the light of how
much overlap there /can/ be, the difference exposes some of the latitude
that the game mechanic must address. One of the primary concerns of
Scattershot is to treat gamemaster and player alike, because their roles
will blur more and more as people get beyond this traditional model.
Once again this latitude allows people who play Scattershot to 'find
their own level,' either by trial and error or by informed choice
(hopefully the technique section of Scattershot can help there).
Ultimately this is about finding a balance between the extremes. Here
are some of the more important extremes as demostrated by the
differences between how Scattershot affords players and gamemasters in
the 'thumbnail of gaming' chapter.
Character Creation:
In keeping with the 'emotional attachment' that is a result of a
more detailed character creation system (as described in both the
first regular installment of the [SCATTERSHOT:] articles
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>
and this article
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=457&forum=4>),
players create characters /for themselves/.[/list:u]
Gamemasters, on the other hand, mostly create characters
/for everyone's/ collective enjoyment.[/list:u]Play:
Because it makes little sense to have a game that is
not /for/ the players (being the bulk of the
participants) and in keeping with the sharing
principal
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>
I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play
forward. While events in the game should not wait for
player character action, the game /should/ obligate
the player characters to some kind of action. (Who
wants to play inertia?)[/list:u]
In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do
what they can to facilitate play. This is one
of the main reasons they traditionally create
characters, for the facilitation of
play.[/list:u]'Flow of Play' issues, like
pacing, scale, and scope:
Players /can/ affect these.[/list:u]
Gamemasters /must/ according to
tradition.[/list:u]Using the
mechanics during play:
Players can invoke them
whenever they feel a need for
them.[/list:u]
Gamemasters are then
expected to arbitrate.
Because of the
impartiality issues I
described earlier
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2&1>,
it is important for
gamemasters to only
arbitrate in a fashion
that is 'fair' but also
open under these
mechanics. For this
reason Scattershot is
designed (counter to the
traditional model) to
allow anyone to
arbitrate, not just the
gamemaster.[/list:u]I
guess on some level this
describes mechanics as
the tool of the player
which is then the
responsibility of the
gamemaster. In most
traditional instances I
know, in the application
of the mechanics, the
gamemaster mostly only
responds to these (and
is the only respondant);
this is an unfortunate
balance (that we feel
needs to be changed).
Scattershot's mechanics
are meant to be a tool
for everyone and should
allow anyone to
arbitrate, because of
the overlap in all
roles. However,
ultimately, when an
irreconcilable
inter-participant
conflict exists within
the playing group, only
then does Scattershot
have the gamemaster be
the final arbiter.
Next up, where and when
are mechanics used or
needed.
Fang Langford
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*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
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« *Reply #1 on:* December 27, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey,
It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if
/everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player
responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those
assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways.
My writing of Sorcerer ('89 in the barest beginning stages; '94-96 in
the nuts & bolts stages, '96-98 for the playtesting stages) shows
horrible scar tissue and baseball-type stitches about this issue. There
are still patches of prose that I didn't catch prior to book-printing,
in which the term "GM" should really be replaced with "the group," or
"GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides." I
assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding
ideologue of the group, and now I think differently.
Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so
much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player
roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think
there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits
a variety of Transitional outcomes?
Best,
Ron
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« *Reply #2 on:* December 27, 2001, 03:26:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Because it makes little sense to have a game that is not for the players
(being the bulk of the participants) and in keeping with the sharing
principal I explained earlier, players must obviously drive play
forward. While events in the game should not wait for player character
action, the game should obligate the player characters to some kind of
action. (Who wants to play inertia?)
Amen, brother!
Quote
In the antipode, gamemasters must therefore do what they can to
facilitate play.
Thank you thank you thank you for using the word "facilitate". As Ron
has heard me rant many a time, I also think the GM's primary role is
that of facilitator. (For example, in narrativist play, the GM is not
the "storyteller". S/he is the facilitator of the players being
"storytellers".) (Side note: I think this extends to other areas as
well. I think a teacher's role is to facilitate students educating
themselves, a librarian's role is to facilitate patrons finding
information, an artist's role is to facilitate everybody creating art,
ad nauseum.)
I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of
a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody
being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions.
You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang.
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« *Reply #3 on:* December 27, 2001, 09:45:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Ron Edwards wrote:
It's a tough issue, Fang, not the least because it seems as if
/everyone/ carries a load of unspoken assumptions about GM/player
responsibilities and privileges, and very few are willing to air those
assumptions, except in dysfunctional ways.
That's why I thought it needed to be spelled out concretely. Another of
Scattershot's design objectives was that, while being organized for
beginners to grasp, it had to also have a thing or two to tell
experienced gamers. I thought one of the best things I could do was to
at least provide explicit roles for gamemasters and players up front,
with some discussion on how these both overlap and can have their
responsibilities shifted to the other party. This provides grist for
the experienced gamer mill to grind out some new understandings for
themselves. (The trick will be to not 'talk under' or 'talk over'
anyone's heads, simultaneously.)
Quote
...or "GM decides" should really be replaced with "the player decides."
I assumed up until the mid-late 90s that a GM was also the guiding
ideologue of the group, and now I think differently.
Agreed. I also think that ultimate decisions should be held to a group
decision because of the aforementioned 'sharing principal.' I put the
gamemaster up as final authority because, 1 is an odd number (which
avoids deadlocks), and a single person often acts faster than a
committee when it comes to tough decisions (preserving 'flow of play' as
I mentioned over in the earlier article
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1073&forum=2>).
Quote
Since Scattershot has Transition as a design goal (I like that term so
much that I'm gonna keep it!), do you see GM and player
roles/responsibilities as a labile feature of the game? Or do you think
there's a way to set those things up in a stable way that still permits
a variety of Transitional outcomes?
I believe I have already mentioned that one of Scattershot's design
specifications is that it is meant to be 'familiar' to experienced
gamers (though I cannot find the reference). This means we /must/ use
terms like hit points, gamemaster, and so on. In our case that also
means we give the terms 'gamemaster' and 'player' and the descriptions
above /as a starting point/. I would have gone into the details of the
techniques that allow Transition away from traditional models for these
'roles at the table,' but I only posted this as underpinning for
upcoming installments (as I said, these show the /extremes/ that can be
had).
And yes, I do think there is a "stable way" to set these up. If you
remember back to when I posted Scattershot's chapter layout
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=673&forum=2>, you
can see that the basic premise of what players and gamemasters are is
layed out quite early. When the text comes back to these issues, a
reader will be expected to have a handle on how these work in the
traditional sense. Based on that, in terms of describing the
techniques, we can work from /there/ (but only if we are /very careful/
how we depict these roles in the first place).
Fang Langford
[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 00:47 ]
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can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com
<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>
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*Part III: Being the Difference Between Players & Gamemasters
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« *Reply #4 on:* December 27, 2001, 10:41:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
joshua neff wrote:
Quote
Fang wrote:
Gamemasters must therefore do what they can to facilitate play.
Thank you for using the word "facilitate". I also think the GM's primary
role is that of facilitator. [Snip.]
I think the whole "what the hell is a GM" question is a topic worthy of
a lot of thought. Do all RPGs /have/ to have a GM? What about everybody
being a GM? What does a GM do, anyway? These are all good questions.
Role-playing games, in my opinion, certainly do not need gamemasters.
In fact, I tend to think of gamemasterless play as an unreachable
ideal. On a practical level, there are a number of things a gamemaster
is most ideally suited to handling (at least when no one else is
interested). Aside from the relative ease their role makes for them to
portray the hundreds of extras that populate a game, I think I rather
clearly designated the remainder of their traditional duties back in
this article
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=993&forum=14> about
Scattershot's live-action techniques.
Simply listed, they were: referee of /player/ disputes, the game's
originator (or at least the codifier), facilitator of play (keeping up
the 'flow of play,' steering relevance, and et cetera), facilities
arrangement (though this is most often delegated, if the gamemaster, in
all these other roles, does not make it, the game doesn't happen), and
finally handling 'membership' (surprise characters can be very
disruptive, running against facilitation).
There is one role 'hidden' within being the 'facilitator of play;' that
is being the 'head' of the game. In large corporations (and in the US
government for that matter), at some point there is a sole individual
who is charged with orchestrating the actions of the unit whole (most
often outwardly). This serves how the group survives as its own entity.
Now I am not talking about a dictatorship here; rare is the company
where the CEO makes changes that take the whole by surprise, but even
though advised and 'checked and balanced' there is nothing that beats
the efficacy and quick reactions (when needed) of a single individual.
The number one, main reason I gave this topic its own article is because
I have to agree that it does require a good deal of discussion, and I
for one, did not want the totality of Scattershot's mechanics to hide
this potential for discussion.
Quote
You've got some good stuff here so far, Fang.
Thank you, I appreciate the input. The number two reason I segregated
this topic was that I am not convinced that I have the whole of it yet.
I look forward to what becomes of each of the component articles in the
[SCATTERSHOT:] series.
Fang Langford
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« *Reply #5 on:* December 28, 2001, 07:04:00 AM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fang--
While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of
players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM
to guide them all (*ahem*). I think GM-less play (which is really
"everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a completely feasible option, & one which
shouldn't be discounted. I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to
be a GM" is a basic mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover
from playing in dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows,I've been in
enough gaming groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of
authority. But I've also been in groups in which consensus was the rule,
not the exception.
I would love to see more RPGs which promoted & facilitated something
other than the "one GM" concept. (& despite my own preferences, I'd love
to play more "everyone's a GM" games.)
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« *Reply #6 on:* December 28, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josh-
I am currently writing a turn-based RPG where there is no GM, but the
"non-active" players play all the NPCs and help drive the action,
basically a reverse RPG.
Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02.
But that's neither here nor there to the thread. My own idea is that
everyone needs to work together to drive the story, or else just have
the GM read to you all from the Chronicles of Narnia or something.
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« *Reply #7 on:* December 28, 2001, 10:53:00 AM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of contributing to thread-hijack, the Ars Magica game I play
is fully co-GMed. Such a thing is entirely possible and, let me tell
you, big big fun.
At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too. (By which I
mean for mechanics we use the 'mechanics' that drive any shared creative
process: discussion, debate, as much clarity as possible, willingness to
compromise, and just generally all caring about the game.)
If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal,
day-to-day consensus that makes roleplaying happen breaks down -- and if
you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them. But boyo
that's me being pedantic. I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks
like a great game so far.
-lumpley Vincent
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« *Reply #8 on:* December 28, 2001, 01:31:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment.
It tackled a really tricky issue.
One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be
is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and
personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not
going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining
the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of
play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer,
consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage
participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal.
Laurel
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« *Reply #9 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
joshua neff wrote:
While my gaming preferences remain solidly in the "one GM for a group of
players" realm, I'm entirely unconvinced that there needs to be one GM
to guide them all (*ahem*).
Same here. The reasons I created these breakdowns was to have a
starting point towards explaining how to do things differently.
Quote
I think GM-less play (which is really "everyone-is-a-GM" play) is a
completely feasible option, & one which shouldn't be discounted.
I don't mean to discount it, but considering how important I think the
emotional attachment to a game /through/ their characters is for the
players, I find it an extremely sophisticated form of play to switch
between 'player' and 'gamemaster' as frequently as a "gamemaster-filled"
game requires. Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I
have very little room to address this kind of play in the core products.
On the other hand, if you read through the link I gave above, you can
see that I have gone to great lengths to create techniques that allows a
live-action Scattershot game to be essentially 'gamemaster-free' game.
Quote
I sometimes think the idea that "there needs to be a GM" is a basic
mistrust in decision-making-by-consensus, a holdover from playing in
dysfunctional gaming groups. Lord knows, I've been in enough gaming
groups in which /somebody/ had to exert some sort of authority. But I've
also been in groups in which consensus was the rule, not the exception.
Actually, the 'sharing' of any game (or game-world) underscores the
actually high level of consensus that already exists in gaming. I never
meant to depreciate the value of decision-by-consensus, but I felt that
in some cases it can be more important to have a speedy decision (like
can be had by a single gamemaster) than one subject to debate as can be
sometimes necessary with consensus.
Scattershot's playing techniques describe a general use of consensus
throughout, but has the group place its consensual 'power' in the
gamemaster for those times when time is more important than discussion
(just like a representative democracy).
Fang Langford
[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-12-28 20:08 ]
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« *Reply #10 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
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Quote
Mahoux wrote:
I am currently writing a turn-based RPG...
[Snip.]
Stuff that's all in the works and should get finished in '02.
Wow!?! Next week! I wish I was that fast.
Fang Langford
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« *Reply #11 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
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Scattershot is meant to be formally for beginners so I have very little
room to address this kind of play in the core products.
Oh, I understand. I just felt the need, as I often do, to start looking
at alternatives. I think you're right to put forth the (for lack of a
better word) traditional way of playing.
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« *Reply #12 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
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Quote
lumpley wrote:
At the risk of using hot language, it's mechanic-less too.
This matches what I described in [SCATTERSHOT:] Whence go the Mechanics
<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1087&forum=2&0> as
General play. (If you want to go back and look at it.)
Quote
If you ask me, both mechanics and having a GM are for when the normal,
day-to-day consensus that makes role-playing happen, breaks down -- and
if you're willing to commit to consensus, you don't need them.
Exactly the point I am making. But beginners cannot be expected to be
sophisticated enough to play this way on the first go. Since
Scattershot is for beginners as well as experienced players, I need to
set down a 'starting point' to describe these sorts of things.
Quote
I'm really enjoying your posts, Fang. Looks like a great game so far.
Thank you very much, I cannot say how well I appreciate the compliments
(words fail). I hope to hear more of what you think as the remainder is
posted.
Fang Langford
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« *Reply #13 on:* December 28, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »
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You know, something's been niggling at me, & I think I just nailed what
it is.
Fang, you've referred to "GM-less"/"everyone's-a-GM" play as
"sophisticated", & that Scattershot, as primarily for beginners,
shouldn't expect people to be able to easily achieve this level of play.
Here's the thing. I don't think it's sophisticated. Not any more than
"traditional" RPG play.
When I was in grade school, my friends & I played Superheroes everyday
on the playground. We spun long, elaborate narratives over the course of
the school year. Villains died & returned, heroes were faced with
conflict, & dumb fart jokes were made. There was no GM, all decisions
were made essentially by consensus. I don't think what we were doing was
any more sophisticated than playing /D&D/ with one GM making decisions
(in the style of, as you said, a representative democracy).
I guess I feel like you're not giving beginners enough credit.
Especially considering they haven't had the dysfunctional RPG
experiences a lot of us old timers have had. I think beginners could
quite possibly handle a myriad of RPG styles easily. Which is not to say
that the way you're going about Scattershot is wrong by any stretch of
the imagination. You've obviously put a LOT of thought into this, & so
far it looks really good.
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« *Reply #14 on:* December 28, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
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Quote
Laurel wrote:
First of all, thank you for posting the first Scattershot installment.
It tackled a really tricky issue.
One that I have felt for some time has needed to be 'outed.' I am not
comfortable saying that I 'have it,' but I think I have at least
conceived of a good 'starting point.'
Quote
One of the problems, I think, in defining what GM-Player roles should be
is because GMs and Players can all have such different game styles and
personalities that whatever system of governance you establish, its not
going to be what works for ~everyone~. What you have done in defining
the differences between player "can" and GM "must" to fufill flow of
play, for example, certainly helps pinpoint what you, as the developer,
consider "ideal" Scattershot GM and player styles and might encourage
participants to steer towards meeting your personal ideal.
Actually no. What I described was not that close to my ideal. As I
have stated elsewhere, we chose to have Scattershot be accessible to as
much of the audience of experienced gamers as possible. In keeping with
that, I created the above descriptions of what I consider the functional
traditional set-up.
My actual perspective is that 'flow of play' is more important than what
are the specific duties or rights of either players or gamemasters. I
established the above relationships only as a starting point.
(Actually, I listed the above traditional relationships so as to show
some of the extremes that the features I delved into could reach.)
In the techniques given in Scattershot, we deal with these roles (and
variations on them) in much more detail. Since, in this series of
articles, I am only dealing with the mechanical portion of Scattershot,
I only brought these up only to suggest some of the different types of
emotional investments that can be had (at least traditionally) and how
they relate the actual issues I was discussing.
Thank you for your insightful commentary. It goes a long way towards
suggesting the totality of the realms of player-gamemaster
relationships. (Which I hope to comment on some day when I delve into
the techniques of Scattershot, right now I have my hands full detailing
the mechanics though.)
Fang Langford
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