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34 | | |-+ *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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40 *Pages:* [*1*] 2 |
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41 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.15> 3 |
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47 Print |
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48 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=12001.0> |
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49 |
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50 Author Topic: Wait, What Matters Again? (Read 2499 times) |
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51 |
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52 *Ben Lehman |
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53 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007>* |
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54 Member |
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55 |
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56 Posts: 1400 |
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57 |
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58 splendidquetzl |
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59 <aim:goim?screenname=splendidquetzl&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?> |
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60 <callto://benlehman/> |
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61 View Profile |
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62 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1007> WWW |
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63 <http://www.tao-games.com/> Email <mailto:taogames@gmail.com> Personal |
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64 Message (Offline) |
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65 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1007> |
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66 |
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67 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128175#msg128175> |
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68 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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69 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128175#msg128175>* |
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70 |
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71 « * on:* July 14, 2004, 09:54:05 PM » |
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72 |
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73 |
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74 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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75 Wait, what Matters again? |
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76 Or |
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77 The Extent of Sys |
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78 Or |
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79 "If you have a D&D game without orc-killing, is it Drift?" |
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80 Or |
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81 "No complete RPG will ever be made." |
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82 |
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83 Jargon Alert: If you are not familiar with these terms as they are used |
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84 in Forge discourse, go and look them up before reading this: |
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85 1) The lumpley Principle (I call it lP sometimes), which I wield like a |
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86 fucking club all over this post. |
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87 2) Shared Imagined Space (which is my favoritest term ever) |
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88 3) Exploration |
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89 4) Exploration, components of (Situation, Setting, Color, blah, blah) |
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90 5) Credibility |
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91 6) Drift |
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92 |
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93 Curse Alert: For some reason, I am particularly vulgar in this essay. |
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94 |
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95 System does Matter. |
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96 |
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97 What? |
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98 |
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99 What matters? |
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100 |
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101 Good question. |
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102 |
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103 What the hell is this "System" anyway? |
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104 |
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105 Well, for a lot of people, this is like art and porn -- they know it |
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106 when they see it. This is not a satisfactory definition to me and, I |
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107 venture, should not be a satisfactory definition for anyone who gives a |
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108 damn about discussing the theory of RPGs which is probably everyone |
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109 reading this post since the god-damn forum is called "RPG Theory." I |
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110 mean fuck, people. If you're not interested in RPG theory I can't |
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111 exactly hold your fucking hand through this thing, can I? Just go read |
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112 your pansy "Actual Play" or suck it up, stay here with the theory wonks, |
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113 and quitcherbitchin. |
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114 |
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115 That intro was actually a little misleading -- I'm going to take my |
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116 definition from the lumpley Principle (the only piece of role-playing |
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117 theory so low-budget it can only afford one capital letter), so I |
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118 already have a definition in hand. But what I'm going to do is take a |
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119 look at that and go "holy fuck, that's a hell of a lot bigger than I |
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120 thought. Like, fuck, man! I gotta design all that shit?" Or |
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121 something. Basically, what I am saying here is "the System" covers a |
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122 huge range of stuff, only a small subset of which is ever talked about |
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123 or even acknowledged by game texts. |
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124 |
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125 So, okay. Let's look at the l.P. |
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126 "The System is the means by which players negotiate the contents of |
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127 their shared imagined space." |
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128 |
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129 Right. |
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130 |
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131 So what is it? What's in there? To find this, I'm going to "run the |
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132 statement backwards" and say that "The means by which the players |
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133 negotiate the contents of the shared imagined space is the System." I |
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134 realize that this is a different statement. Call it the "lumpley |
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135 Principle adjunct" or the "Little Timmy Principle" or, perhaps, the |
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136 "'kiss my ass, you 'systemless rpg' players' principle." |
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137 |
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138 Well, let's start with the obvious thing: Mechanics. |
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139 |
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140 What are mechanics? Mechanics are things which say "If your roll of |
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141 17d7 is greater than or equal to the target number correlated from |
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142 charts 2.5 to 6.4.1 inclusive, your character succeeds." Or, "The |
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143 character with the higher Warfare will, all things being equal, win any |
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144 strategic or tactical situation." Or, "when Virgo is ascendant, the |
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145 leftmost player takes on the role of High Priestess, which means that |
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146 she speaks for the Mother in all things, particularly to combat with |
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147 axes, maces, and tangerines." Essentially, mechanics are anything which |
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148 resolves situations in the RPG through deliberate, particular means, |
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149 often mathematical. There's a hell of a lot of analysis of mechanics |
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150 out there. To some people, actually a lot of people, mechanics is all |
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151 there is to system. System and mechanics are the same thing. This |
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152 people are poorly informed assholes, fuckwits, and malcontents, not |
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153 worthy to lick the dirt out of my toenails. Or perhaps we just have |
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154 different definitions of system. Either/or. |
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155 |
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156 Are mechanics a part of system? Well, duh. Are they the whole shebang? |
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157 Not even fucking close. |
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158 |
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159 How about setting? A lot of gamers (including me) have this whole |
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160 hang-up about setting/system differences. A lot of people say that an |
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161 RPG text is comprised of setting and system. "So they're totally |
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162 different, right?" asks Little Timmy. |
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163 |
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164 Well, Little Timmy ("Don't call my little I am twenty-three") let's look |
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165 at the lumpley Principle. Hrm... Can setting effect the contents of |
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166 the shared imagined space? Fuck yes! Setting is the background of the |
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167 shared imagined space. In fact, I would say that, given the definition |
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168 of system from the lP, setting is often a greater component of system |
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169 than mechanics. I mean, which has more weight on the actual play of the |
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170 game "We are using the D&D mechanics" or "We are playing in the |
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171 Forgotten Realms?" Yeah. Hard question, ain't it? |
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172 |
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173 So Setting goes in the box. Wait, does this mean that all setting-less |
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174 game texts are fundamentally incomplete with regards to system. Yes. |
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175 Fucking right. Precisely so, Little Timmy. Now take your medicine and |
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176 get out of my face. |
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177 |
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178 Okay, how about situation? Marco talked about this a little bit with me |
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179 recently, which is what set me off on this whole thing but, essentially, |
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180 does the basic situation of the game effect the shared imagined space? |
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181 Or, as he (roughly), put it, "is it still D&D if you aren't killing |
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182 orcs?" I used to be a big opponent of the idea that sitch could be a |
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183 part of system or, rather, I would talk about playing D&D *without |
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184 drift* (by which I meant Mechanical Drift). |
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185 |
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186 I was a fucking bonehead. *I'm* not even fit to lick to dirt out of my |
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187 own toenails. Look, can situation be used, by a player, to make a |
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188 statement about the shared imagined space? Yes. Of course. If it |
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189 can't, well, I don't know what it is. It's like the situation has |
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190 nothing to do with what's going on in the game? Whatever. It doesn't |
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191 happen. |
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192 |
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193 Okay, let's stop it with this piece-by-piece shit and just eat the whole |
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194 pie like the fucking fat pigs we are: What isn't System? What, in the |
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195 entire act of role-playing, is not a part of System, as it is defined by |
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196 my god and saviour, Vincent "lumpley" Baker (whose principle I'm sure |
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197 you are sick of hearing of, at this point)? |
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198 |
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199 Out of game relationships (players sleeping with each other, or some |
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200 such) -- System |
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201 Who ordered pizza? -- most likely system. I mean, you don't want to |
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202 kill the guy who ordered the pizza in the first scene. That's just low. |
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203 The emotional state of all the players? -- System, definitely. More |
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204 important to System than mechanics, more'n likely. |
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205 That "Lucky twenty-sider" and the rituals that surround it? -- System, I |
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206 think. This is probably the furthest borderline case I can find. |
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207 |
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208 I cannot imagine a single aspect of the act of role-playing that is not, |
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209 in some regard, a part of System. I can't even conceive of the |
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210 possibility of their being such an element. Please offer suggestions, |
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211 if you can. |
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212 |
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213 So, okay, what does that mean to designers? |
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214 |
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215 Well, it is pretty fucking obvious that no game text can, will, or |
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216 should present a totally complete system -- that is a game without |
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217 players. However, a lot of chunks of system (The GM-player |
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218 relationship, say, or the little social rules that game groups carry |
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219 with them) are carried from game to game totally unthinkingly, and that, |
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220 I think, needs to change. Essentially, for design, this means "look, by |
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221 offering a 'role-playing system' you are, in fact, offering an |
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222 incomplete item which will be interfaced with by the role-playing group |
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223 to create a whole system, which will in turn be used to manipulate the |
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224 particulars of their shared imagined space." |
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225 |
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226 So, the question that I have is: What does it mean to include a certain |
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227 system in a game text, in terms of effect on Actual Play? What does it |
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228 mean to leave it out? |
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229 |
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230 yrs-- |
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231 --Ben |
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232 |
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233 P.S. The first one who gets the "23 years old" reference gets a prize. |
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234 PM me or stick in a P.S. And, yes, Google is cheating. |
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235 |
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236 P.P.S. Tip o' the hat to Mike Mearls for the "no complete RPG" bit. |
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237 Logged |
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238 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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239 |
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240 |
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241 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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242 These are our Games <http://www.tao-games.com> |
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243 This is my Blog <http://benlehman.blogspot.com/> |
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244 |
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245 *contracycle |
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246 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=109>* |
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247 Member |
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248 |
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249 Posts: 2371 |
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250 |
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251 |
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252 View Profile |
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253 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=109> Email |
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254 <mailto:contracycle@blueyonder.co.uk> Personal Message (Offline) |
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255 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=109> |
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256 |
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257 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128177#msg128177> |
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258 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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259 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128177#msg128177>* |
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260 |
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261 « *Reply #1 on:* July 14, 2004, 10:51:03 PM » |
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262 |
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263 |
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264 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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265 Erm, yes and no. |
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266 |
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267 Its true to say that I cannot create a complete system in the sense you |
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268 appear to describe. The actual physical game that actually happens is |
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269 largely beyond my control. |
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270 |
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271 But this is a restriction that applies to many things and is IMO |
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272 implicit in the creation of any device for use by anyone other than the |
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273 designer. IMO this is Not An Issue; it was resolved by the |
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274 identifiication that textual rules are only contributory elements to the |
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275 social contract, which is the real mechanism governing the human |
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276 interactions. |
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277 |
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278 But being contributary elements, they do serve to inform the negotiation |
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279 of that social contract and do bring the designer into the conversation |
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280 at the table, as it were. That is the purpose of system. By analogy, I |
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281 cannot perhaps construct a system that produces faultless justice; but I |
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282 can propose a system of trial by jury if I think that this prior |
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283 discussion of local social contract would be useful to the pursuit of |
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284 justice. |
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285 |
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286 System matters in that respect. System is an overt implementation of |
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287 social contract. |
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288 |
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289 Now I have previously proposed that in essence, among players suitably |
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290 familiar with the form and process of RPG, no real 'RPG product' |
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291 purchase is necessary at all. They could just pick up a book, and refer |
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292 to that book as if it were the RPG world. With any of a number of |
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293 generic or favoured system, they could have some sort of game. |
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294 |
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295 So in that sense one might indeed say system is not very necessary at |
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296 all. But we do think system is necessary - and I believe we think this |
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297 becuase it frames our interactions with the SIS. We resolve conflicts, |
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298 and thus determine what enters the SIS, for example. And that is why |
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299 IMO particular system matters even when system in abstract falls away |
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300 into the nebulous social contract. Any actual implementation of a |
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301 particular system gives instructions to players: you do this after that |
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302 after the other for such a goal. Actual human behaviour - sure pretty |
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303 unimportant, but still actual - is being governed to an extent by the |
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304 designer and the design, exactly as it might be in a beauracracy or |
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305 engineering system. |
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306 Logged |
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307 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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308 |
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309 |
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310 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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311 Impeach the bomber boys: |
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312 www.impeachblair.org <http://www.impeachblair.org> |
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313 www.impeachbush.org <http://www.impeachbush.org> |
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314 |
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315 "He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship |
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316 without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast." |
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317 - Leonardo da Vinci |
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318 |
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319 *Paganini <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=284>* |
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320 Member |
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321 |
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322 Posts: 1046 |
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323 |
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324 34492883 <http://web.icq.com/whitepages/about_me/1,,,00.html?Uin=34492883> |
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325 View Profile |
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326 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=284> WWW |
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327 <http://web.madisontelco.com/~paganini> Email |
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328 <mailto:paganini@madisontelco.com> Personal Message (Offline) |
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329 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=284> |
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330 |
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331 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128184#msg128184> |
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332 *Re: Wait, What Matters Again? |
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333 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128184#msg128184>* |
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334 |
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335 « *Reply #2 on:* July 15, 2004, 12:00:35 AM » |
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336 |
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337 |
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338 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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339 I just want to point out one of those aspects of the lP that seems |
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340 obvious, but that will be news to a lot of traditional-style RPG |
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341 designers. Yeah, "mechanics" and "system" are not synonyms here. |
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342 Mechanics may be a big part of system, but they're not the *entirity* of |
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343 system. |
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344 |
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345 Turn that around, though, and think about this: *not all rules / |
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346 mechanics are part of the system.* A lot of times, especially in |
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347 home-brew games, you'll see mechanics tacked on that, maybe, the |
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348 designer liked in some other game, but didn't really understand the |
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349 point of - with the net effect that the mechanic actually does nothing |
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350 at all in terms of System. It's just kind of *there,* fogging up the |
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351 works, but when you really look at it, it doesn't go anywhere. |
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352 |
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353 But, to answer your question, what you're doing when you write a system |
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354 is informing the players about your vision of play. What you leave out, |
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355 they will be forced to make up on their own. If their personalities are |
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356 incompatible with making up that particular stuff, then they will want |
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357 to play a game. |
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358 |
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359 A lot of people don't want to play freeform... but they will play "The |
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360 Window," which is functionally equivalent to Freeform, AFAIAC. |
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361 Logged |
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362 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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363 |
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364 |
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365 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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366 |
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367 *http://www.livejournal.com/users/taiji_jian/* |
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368 *http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/indie-netgaming/* |
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369 |
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370 *Marco <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190>* |
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371 Member |
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372 |
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373 Posts: 1718 |
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374 |
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375 |
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376 View Profile |
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377 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190> WWW |
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378 <http://www.jagsrpg.org> Email <mailto:jagsgame@yahoo.com> Personal |
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379 Message (Offline) |
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380 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=190> |
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381 |
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382 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128198#msg128198> |
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383 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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384 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128198#msg128198>* |
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385 |
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386 « *Reply #3 on:* July 15, 2004, 01:33:29 AM » |
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387 |
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388 |
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389 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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390 Ben, |
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391 |
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392 If setting, situation, and mechanics are the same thing in terms of |
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393 system (and I'm not arguing they aren't--it's a fine way to look at it) |
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394 then making up a new town is the same thing as adding critical hits to |
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395 the damage system. You can argue that one's more effort than the other |
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396 but the harder one is probably the town if it's detailed. |
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397 |
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398 That would make drift as related to the utility of a game in terms of |
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399 coherence very shaky since in practice one must make characters and |
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400 situationa and setting in order to play (traditionally) anyway. |
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401 |
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402 -Marco |
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403 Logged |
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404 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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405 |
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406 |
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407 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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408 --------------------------------------------- |
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409 JAGS (Just Another Gaming System) |
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410 a free, high-quality, universal system at: |
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411 http://www.jagsrpg.org |
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412 *Just Released: JAGS Wonderland* |
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413 |
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414 *Kesher <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3267>* |
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415 Member |
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416 |
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417 Posts: 119 |
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418 |
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419 ulfias@hotmail.com <http://members.msn.com/ulfias@hotmail.com> |
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420 View Profile |
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421 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3267> |
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422 Personal Message (Offline) |
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423 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=3267> |
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424 |
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425 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128242#msg128242> |
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426 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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427 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128242#msg128242>* |
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428 |
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429 « *Reply #4 on:* July 15, 2004, 04:21:27 AM » |
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430 |
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431 |
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432 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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433 Quote |
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434 Out of game relationships (players sleeping with each other, or some |
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435 such) -- System |
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436 Who ordered pizza? -- most likely system. I mean, you don't want to |
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437 kill the guy who ordered the pizza in the first scene. That's just low. |
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438 The emotional state of all the players? -- System, definitely. More |
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439 important to System than mechanics, more'n likely. |
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440 That "Lucky twenty-sider" and the rituals that surround it? -- System, I |
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441 think. This is probably the furthest borderline case I can find. |
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442 |
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443 |
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444 It seems to me that Vincent approaches some of this in the Theory |
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445 section of the lumpley games website (Burning Down the Firewall): |
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446 |
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447 http://www.septemberquestion.org/lumpley/hardcore.html |
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448 |
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449 I actually got really excited when I read this, because it seemed so |
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450 (blindsidingly) commonsensical. And Ben, I don't see the "lucky |
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451 20-sider" as borderline in this consideration at all. |
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452 |
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453 I think that explicitly addressing what goes on, realistically, |
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454 dynamically when people are in-the-act-of-gaming, as part of the overall |
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455 system is a powerful design question. How does the game require players |
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456 to /behave/ while playing? What happens to the game if they /don't/ |
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457 behave that way, & should it then be considered drift? |
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458 |
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459 I never had any interest in playing Wraith (though a friend of mine was |
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460 always bugging me to do so) because I didn't care to adopt the mindset |
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461 or around-the-table-behaviors the "system" (in Ben's larger sense) |
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462 seemed to demand. |
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463 Logged |
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464 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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465 |
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466 |
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467 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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468 Sometimes the sunset doesn't want to be photographed |
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469 --- Hood |
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470 |
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471 http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/indiemn/ |
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472 |
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473 *John Kim |
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474 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1105>* |
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475 Member |
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476 |
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477 Posts: 1791 |
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478 |
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479 |
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480 View Profile |
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481 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1105> WWW |
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482 <http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/> Email |
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483 <mailto:jhkim@darkshire.net> Personal Message (Offline) |
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484 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1105> |
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485 |
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486 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128250#msg128250> |
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487 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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488 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128250#msg128250>* |
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489 |
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490 « *Reply #5 on:* July 15, 2004, 05:27:56 AM » |
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491 |
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492 |
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493 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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494 Quote from: Marco |
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495 If setting, situation, and mechanics are the same thing in terms of |
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496 system (and I'm not arguing they aren't--it's a fine way to look at it) |
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497 then making up a new town is the same thing as adding critical hits to |
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498 the damage system. You can argue that one's more effort than the other |
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499 but the harder one is probably the town if it's detailed. |
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500 |
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501 That would make drift as related to the utility of a game in terms of |
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502 coherence very shaky since in practice one must make characters and |
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503 situationa and setting in order to play (traditionally) anyway. |
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504 |
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505 Yeah. I remember having touched on this before, but I can't remember |
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506 the threads. There are tons of games which specify setting. I would |
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507 say using Lord of the Rings or Skyrealms of Jorune for a different |
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508 setting is a far more major change to system than, say, ignoring |
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509 alignment rules. There are a few games which specify character, like |
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510 Timelord (1991) or Run Out the Guns (1998). There are also a few which |
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511 specify situation -- i.e. scenario-based games like the Sandman series |
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512 (1985) or Pokemon Jr (1999). |
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513 |
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514 So here's the big question. So creating new characters in Timelord is a |
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515 change to the system, just as much so as changing the resolution |
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516 mechanics. But we commonly think that, say, creating a setting for The |
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517 Pool is not a change to system. But that seems to make them unequal. A |
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518 problem with "incoherence" as a design criteria is that the less that |
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519 you specify with a game, the less likely that parts will clash. |
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520 Logged |
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521 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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522 |
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523 |
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524 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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525 - John |
|
526 |
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527 *lumpley <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=119>* |
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528 Acts of Evil Playtesters |
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529 Member |
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530 * |
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531 Posts: 2053 |
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532 |
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533 |
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534 View Profile |
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535 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=119> WWW |
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536 <http://www.lumpley.com/> Email <mailto:lumpley@yahoo.com> Personal |
|
537 Message (Online) |
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538 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=119> |
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539 |
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540 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128255#msg128255> |
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541 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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542 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128255#msg128255>* |
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543 |
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544 « *Reply #6 on:* July 15, 2004, 05:47:16 AM » |
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545 |
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546 |
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547 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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548 Ben, can I introduce something? I think it may be helpful. |
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549 |
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550 There are three things your System has to coordinate. ("System" in the |
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551 full implications of the lumpy piddle sense: the on-the-fly |
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552 fully-negotiated mercurial real-people's-moods-and-habits /process/ that |
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553 you're using to negotiate what happens.) |
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554 |
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555 It has to coordinate: |
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556 A) the wholly imaginary things and events in the "game world"; |
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557 B) real-world abstractions and representations of those things and |
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558 events: maps, numbers, dice, "hit points," etc. |
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559 C) the interactions of the actual human beings. |
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560 |
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561 For instance, a rule like "whoever rolls higher on the attack roll |
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562 inflicts damage on the defender" operates only on B and C: it expects |
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563 the human beings to interact to manipulate some "attack roll" and "hit |
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564 points" at the representation level. Add to the rule "... and describe |
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565 the change in the fighters' circumstances" and you bring in A: now it |
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566 expects the human beings to make changes to the imaginary stuff, not |
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567 just the abstractions. Or add to the rule "... but first give the |
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568 fighters bonuses to their attack rolls depending on their circumstances" |
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569 brings A in too, in a slightly different way. The former: changes to A |
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570 (the fictional circumstances) depend on what happens with B (the |
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571 representations). The latter: what happens with B changes depending on |
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572 details of A. Both together: A informs B, B informs A. In all cases: |
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573 ...according to the direct and active attention of C, the players. |
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574 |
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575 You can imagine rules where A's informing of B is left to the subjective |
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576 interpretation of C ("... but first the GM gives the fighters whatever |
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577 bonuses seem called for"). You can imagine rules where A's informing of |
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578 B is cut and dried ("... and any fighter whose lover is watching the |
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579 fight gets +3 to the attack roll"). You can imagine rules where, |
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580 instead, /B/ informs B ("... and the fighter with the higher number |
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581 written next to 'Fighting' gets +3 to the attack roll"). |
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582 |
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583 You can imagine rules that coordinate only A and C ("only Bob is allowed |
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584 to introduce NPCs," "give Bob's character something to do so he doesn't |
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585 go play video games") or act only at C ("go along with Bob, he's had a |
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586 rough day") as well. Lots of play happens like this. Freeform play is |
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587 easy to understand in this light. |
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588 |
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589 So: now we ought to be able to talk about the real differences between |
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590 1) creating a town, 2) the town itself, 3) getting your group's assent |
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591 to the town, 4) creating a critical hits table, 5) the critical hits |
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592 table itself, and 6) getting your group's assent to the table, plus 7) |
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593 proposing a change to the in-game Sitch (like "I hit him"), 8) the |
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594 change itself, and 9) getting your group's assent to /it/. |
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595 |
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596 We ought to be able to look critically at a particular set of rules' |
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597 coordination of the three levels. Are there holes? Contradictions? |
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598 Unsupported assertions? Wrong guesses? Backfires? According to the |
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599 rules, /who gets to say what about what?/ and /what are the group's |
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600 interests when they do so?/ |
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601 |
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602 And then we ought to be able to look critically at the rules in actual |
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603 play. Are they easy to follow? (Did we even follow them?) Are they |
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604 fun, satisfying, challenging, surprising? How do they flex under |
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605 pressure from various social dynamics? How do they divert or transform |
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606 various social dynamics? As it actually happened, /who got to say what |
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607 about what?/ and /did it serve the group's interests when they did so?/ |
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608 and /was it what the game text promised?/ |
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609 |
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610 (Marco, John, there's a difference between Drift and by-the-rules |
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611 customization. Establishing a definition of Humanity in Sorcerer, for |
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612 instance, or creating characters for most games, or choosing a Setting |
|
613 for the Pool, is customization, not Drift. The vast majority of making |
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614 towns, establishing situations, not killing orcs, that kind of stuff, |
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615 similarly. What's Drift and what's customization will vary |
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616 /tremendously/ from ruleset to ruleset. It seems so basic to me that I |
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617 wonder why it's even a question.) |
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618 |
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619 -Vincent |
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620 Logged |
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621 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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622 |
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623 |
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624 *Bankuei <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=218>* |
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625 Member |
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626 |
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627 Posts: 1876 |
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628 |
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629 bankuei <aim:goim?screenname=bankuei&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?> |
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630 View Profile |
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632 <mailto:yeloson@earthlink.net> Personal Message (Offline) |
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633 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=218> |
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634 |
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635 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128289#msg128289> |
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636 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
|
637 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128289#msg128289>* |
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638 |
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639 « *Reply #7 on:* July 15, 2004, 07:55:33 AM » |
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640 |
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641 |
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642 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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643 Hi Ben, |
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644 |
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645 I with you all the way except "System defines out of game situations"... |
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646 Try, Social Contract defines everything, including System. System is |
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647 everything specific to the game, and Social Contract is everything with |
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648 everybody, including the game. |
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649 |
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650 The lumpley Principle defines System by going /above/ it. |
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651 |
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652 thoughts? |
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653 |
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654 Chris |
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655 Logged |
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656 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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657 |
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658 |
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659 *efindel <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290>* |
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660 Member |
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661 |
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662 Posts: 141 |
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663 |
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664 89087518 |
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665 <http://web.icq.com/whitepages/about_me/1,,,00.html?Uin=89087518> |
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666 targaroth <aim:goim?screenname=targaroth&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?> |
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667 efindel <http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=efindel> |
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668 View Profile |
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669 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290> WWW |
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670 <http://home.earthlink.net/~efindel/> Email |
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671 <mailto:efindel@earthlink.net> Personal Message (Offline) |
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672 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=290> |
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673 |
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674 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128301#msg128301> |
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675 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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676 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128301#msg128301>* |
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677 |
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678 « *Reply #8 on:* July 15, 2004, 08:53:13 AM » |
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679 |
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680 |
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681 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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682 I have to disagree with Setting coming under System here. The lP states |
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683 that "System is the /means/ by which players /negotiate/ the contents of |
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684 their shared imagined space." |
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685 |
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686 Setting is part of the contents -- but Setting in and of itself is not a |
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687 /means/. It is among the objects being manipulated. Statements about |
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688 the shared imaginative space are also not System -- they are not |
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689 /negotiating/ anything, they are simply stating a point of view about |
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690 what's there. |
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691 |
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692 So, going by this... the situation is a part of the shared imaginative |
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693 space -- but it is not System. The methods by which situation is |
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694 decided, and the methods by which it affects other things -- those are |
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695 System, but the situation itself is not. |
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696 |
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697 The fact that, say, a town exists in the setting is not System -- but |
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698 the general social contract rule of "we do not contradict established |
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699 fact about the setting" -- that /is/ System. (Note, though, that it is |
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700 by no means required -- e.g., in a game which takes place in dreams, |
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701 contradicting established fact may be explicitly allowed. It's nothing |
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702 unusual to have a dream which starts in one place, but that suddenly |
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703 turns into a completely different place halfway through, or to start |
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704 with one person there with you, then have that turn into someone else, |
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705 or disappear.) |
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706 |
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707 Finally, to bring in an analogy (bad idea, I know...), System is a set |
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708 of functions. The inputs to those functions are not necessarily System, |
|
709 and the outputs are not necessarily System (though they may form objects |
|
710 for other System functions to work on)... System is the things that are |
|
711 done with those inputs to produce those outputs. Something like the |
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712 players' current emtional state, to me, is an input -- it is not System |
|
713 in and of itself, but it is something which may affect what the System does. |
|
714 Logged |
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715 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
|
716 |
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717 |
|
718 *John Harper |
|
719 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1205>* |
|
720 Member |
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721 |
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722 Posts: 612 |
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723 |
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724 flip you for real |
|
725 |
|
726 |
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727 View Profile |
|
728 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1205> WWW |
|
729 <http://mightyatom.blogspot.com> Personal Message (Offline) |
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730 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1205> |
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731 |
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732 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128304#msg128304> |
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733 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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734 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128304#msg128304>* |
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735 |
|
736 « *Reply #9 on:* July 15, 2004, 09:16:26 AM » |
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737 |
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738 |
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739 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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740 I gotta agree with efindel. Ben's first conclusion just doesn't work for |
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741 me. I mean this bit: |
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742 Quote |
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743 I cannot imagine a single aspect of the act of role-playing that is not, |
|
744 in some regard, a part of System. |
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745 |
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746 This makes "system" mean "everything" and reduces the value of the term |
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747 to zero as far as I can tell. |
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748 |
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749 Setting and Sitation are not part of System. There are two parts to the |
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750 lumpley principle: /The *System* is the means by which players negotiate |
|
751 the contents of their *shared imagined space.*/ Emphasis mine. The two |
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752 parts are System and SIS. One is acting on the other. Setting and |
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753 Situation are part of the SIS. The /means/ by which the SIS is |
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754 established... that's system. |
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755 |
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756 Attempting to converge these two into one big uber-definition of |
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757 "system" seems to reduce the LP to this: "The System is the means by |
|
758 which players negotiate the contents of their System." Wha? |
|
759 System-as-process makes sense to me. System-as-entire-act-of-roleplaying |
|
760 does not. |
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761 |
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762 My lucky 20-sider is not process. The gaming table is not process. My |
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763 emotional state is not process. All of those things can /affect/ the |
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764 process, to be sure, but they are not the process itself. Let's not |
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765 confuse the hammer and the boards for the act of nailing the boards |
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766 together. |
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767 Logged |
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768 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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769 |
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770 |
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771 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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772 The Mighty Atom <http://mightyatom.blogspot.com> -- My design blog for |
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773 Danger Patrol, Stranger Things |
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774 <http://www.onesevendesign.com/strangerthings> and other projects |
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775 |
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776 *John Kim |
|
777 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1105>* |
|
778 Member |
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779 |
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780 Posts: 1791 |
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781 |
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782 |
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783 View Profile |
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784 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1105> WWW |
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785 <http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/> Email |
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786 <mailto:jhkim@darkshire.net> Personal Message (Offline) |
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787 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1105> |
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788 |
|
789 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128332#msg128332> |
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790 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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791 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128332#msg128332>* |
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792 |
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793 « *Reply #10 on:* July 15, 2004, 12:27:23 PM » |
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794 |
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795 |
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796 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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797 Quote from: John Harper |
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798 This makes "system" mean "everything" and reduces the value of the |
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799 term to zero as far as I can tell. |
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800 |
|
801 Setting and Sitation are not part of System. There are two parts to the |
|
802 lumpley principle: /The *System* is the means by which players negotiate |
|
803 the contents of their *shared imagined space.*/ Emphasis mine. The two |
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804 parts are System and SIS. One is acting on the other. Setting and |
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805 Situation are part of the SIS. The /means/ by which the SIS is |
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806 established... that's system. |
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807 |
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808 In practice, though, this is a very fuzzy line to draw. Most written |
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809 RPG rules generally include things in the Shared Imaginary Space. i.e. |
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810 A rule might be "Fire Giants are immune to fire". This is a written |
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811 game rule, and it can be used to arbitrate disputes, but it is also a |
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812 part of the Shared Imaginary Space. As another example, try to separate |
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813 out the Amber DRPG magic rules from magic in the Amber setting. |
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814 |
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815 So let's take an action. i.e. A player says "I cast a fire bolt at the |
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816 giant." OK, so now the GM refers to the description in the rulebook. |
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817 He sees the sentence which says they are immune. The GM says "It has |
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818 no effect." Let's suppose the player is a little irritable that day and |
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819 says "What the heck? It should damage him." The GM then cites the |
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820 rulebook, the player agrees, and they move on. |
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821 |
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822 Now, on the one hand, you can say that the system is not in the rules at |
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823 all. It is the process. i.e. The system is "The GM and player talk and |
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824 agree on what happens" -- while "Fire Giants are immune to fire" is just |
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825 part of the Setting. But this means that all or nearly all of system |
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826 just reduces down to the participants agreeing. |
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827 |
|
828 Quote from: lumpley |
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829 (Marco, John, there's a difference between Drift and by-the-rules |
|
830 customization. Establishing a definition of Humanity in Sorcerer, for |
|
831 instance, or creating characters for most games, or choosing a Setting |
|
832 for the Pool, is customization, not Drift. The vast majority of making |
|
833 towns, establishing situations, not killing orcs, that kind of stuff, |
|
834 similarly. What's Drift and what's customization will vary |
|
835 /tremendously/ from ruleset to ruleset. It seems so basic to me that I |
|
836 wonder why it's even a question.) |
|
837 |
|
838 Right, that's what I was trying to say (although apparently not well). |
|
839 The exact same thing (i.e. designing a setting, for example), which is |
|
840 "Drift" for one system, is "customization" for another system. |
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841 Logged |
|
842 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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843 |
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844 |
|
845 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|
846 - John |
|
847 |
|
848 *John Harper |
|
849 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1205>* |
|
850 Member |
|
851 |
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852 Posts: 612 |
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853 |
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854 flip you for real |
|
855 |
|
856 |
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857 View Profile |
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858 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1205> WWW |
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859 <http://mightyatom.blogspot.com> Personal Message (Offline) |
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860 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=1205> |
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861 |
|
862 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128334#msg128334> |
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863 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
|
864 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128334#msg128334>* |
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865 |
|
866 « *Reply #11 on:* July 15, 2004, 12:45:09 PM » |
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867 |
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868 |
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869 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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870 Hmmm. I see where you're coming from, John. Based on the way I |
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871 understand the term "System", this is what I make of your example. |
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872 |
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873 "Fire Giants are immune to fire" is a quality that Fire Giants have. |
|
874 Therefore, it's part of the Setting, which in turn is part of the SIS |
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875 that the group is negotiating from moment to moment. |
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876 |
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877 The player says "I cast a fire bolt at the giant." Now System steps in. |
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878 How do we determine what happens in the SIS now? According to your |
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879 example, the system in place seems to be "The GM should look at the |
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880 qualities of the target and see if it is immune to the attack. If so, |
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881 the attack has no effect." In the example, the GM exercises this bit of |
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882 system, and adjusts the SIS accordingly: "The bolt has no effect." |
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883 |
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884 System is the /process/ by which the GM made the judgement about |
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885 immunities and their effects in play. If the player complains, simply |
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886 pointing at the entry in the rulebook isn't quite sufficient. The book |
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887 says Fire Giants are immune to fire. So what? The book isn't playing the |
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888 game. The GM has to engage System in order to get this element of |
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889 Setting into the SIS. |
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890 |
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891 Now, this example is less than ideal, becase the bit of System that gets |
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892 used is something that is almost always unspoken in play and is almost |
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893 never mentioned in the rules. D&D3E is the only game I can think of |
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894 off-hand that bothers to actually have a written rule explaining what an |
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895 immunity is and how it impacts play. For most groups this would just be |
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896 "common sense." |
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897 |
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898 Nevertheless, choosing to apply a bit of Setting to a particular moment |
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899 of play and /how/ to apply it and /why/ and who gets to say what... |
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900 that's System. The Fire Giant's quality is used by the System but it is |
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901 not the System itself. |
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902 Logged |
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903 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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904 |
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905 |
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906 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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907 The Mighty Atom <http://mightyatom.blogspot.com> -- My design blog for |
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908 Danger Patrol, Stranger Things |
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909 <http://www.onesevendesign.com/strangerthings> and other projects |
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910 |
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911 *Marco <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190>* |
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912 Member |
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913 |
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914 Posts: 1718 |
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915 |
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916 |
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917 View Profile |
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918 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190> WWW |
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919 <http://www.jagsrpg.org> Email <mailto:jagsgame@yahoo.com> Personal |
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920 Message (Offline) |
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921 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=190> |
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922 |
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923 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128336#msg128336> |
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924 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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925 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128336#msg128336>* |
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926 |
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927 « *Reply #12 on:* July 15, 2004, 12:59:24 PM » |
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928 |
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929 |
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930 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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931 Quote from: lumpley |
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932 (Marco, John, there's a difference between Drift and by-the-rules |
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933 customization. Establishing a definition of Humanity in Sorcerer, for |
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934 instance, or creating characters for most games, or choosing a Setting |
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935 for the Pool, is customization, not Drift. The vast majority of making |
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936 towns, establishing situations, not killing orcs, that kind of stuff, |
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937 similarly. What's Drift and what's customization will vary |
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938 /tremendously/ from ruleset to ruleset. It seems so basic to me that I |
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939 wonder why it's even a question.) |
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940 |
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941 -Vincent |
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942 |
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943 |
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944 I wouldn't consider choosing humanity Drift. That /is/ pretty basic. But |
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945 if I construct a town so there's none of element 'X' in the game and |
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946 element 'X' is something that's mentioned in the rules is that Drift? Is |
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947 it Drift if I play TRoS without a lot of attention given to Flaws? |
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948 |
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949 Where does one draw the line? |
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950 |
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951 Recently Ron says: |
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952 Quote |
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953 |
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954 Easy #1. Maybe your group did Drift some. Is that so hard to imagine? If |
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955 you and your group are very good at CA-Y, then you can get there by |
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956 maximizing what the game can offer along those lines, no matter how |
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957 meager, even if you still apply the other (bulk) of the text. |
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958 |
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959 That seems like he's saying some types of "by-the-book play" are in fact |
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960 drift if the book doesn't specifically say what to emphasize or lessen. |
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961 |
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962 -Marco |
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963 Logged |
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964 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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965 |
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966 |
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967 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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968 --------------------------------------------- |
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969 JAGS (Just Another Gaming System) |
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970 a free, high-quality, universal system at: |
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971 http://www.jagsrpg.org |
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972 *Just Released: JAGS Wonderland* |
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973 |
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974 *efindel <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290>* |
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975 Member |
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976 |
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977 Posts: 141 |
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978 |
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979 89087518 |
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980 <http://web.icq.com/whitepages/about_me/1,,,00.html?Uin=89087518> |
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981 targaroth <aim:goim?screenname=targaroth&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?> |
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982 efindel <http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=efindel> |
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983 View Profile |
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984 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290> WWW |
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985 <http://home.earthlink.net/~efindel/> Email |
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986 <mailto:efindel@earthlink.net> Personal Message (Offline) |
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987 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=290> |
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988 |
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989 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128344#msg128344> |
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990 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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991 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128344#msg128344>* |
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992 |
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993 « *Reply #13 on:* July 15, 2004, 02:06:43 PM » |
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994 |
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995 |
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996 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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997 Quote from: John Kim |
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998 |
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999 So let's take an action. i.e. A player says "I cast a fire bolt at the |
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1000 giant." OK, so now the GM refers to the description in the rulebook. He |
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1001 sees the sentence which says they are immune. The GM says "It has no |
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1002 effect." Let's suppose the player is a little irritable that day and |
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1003 says "What the heck? It should damage him." The GM then cites the |
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1004 rulebook, the player agrees, and they move on. |
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1005 |
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1006 Now, on the one hand, you can say that the system is not in the rules |
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1007 at all. It is the process. i.e. The system is "The GM and player talk |
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1008 and agree on what happens" -- while "Fire Giants are immune to fire" is |
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1009 just part of the Setting. But this means that all or nearly all of |
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1010 system just reduces down to the participants agreeing. |
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1011 |
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1012 |
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1013 A note here -- D&D 3 uses the phrase "immune to" many times... but |
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1014 doesn't really define what that means. It's generally interpreted as |
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1015 meaning "is not affected by". |
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1016 |
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1017 However... that's not the only possible interpretation, and other games |
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1018 have Systems which give other interpretations. For example, the old |
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1019 Advanced Marvel Superheroes RPG stated that "immune to X" meant that the |
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1020 character/being/whatever had "class 1000" resistance to that thing... |
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1021 and thus, for example, something that was "immune to fire" could still |
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1022 be burnt -- it just took the heat of a sun's heart or something similar |
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1023 to do it. |
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1024 |
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1025 Mutants & Masterminds also formally defines "immune to",with its |
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1026 "Immunity" feat -- there, it's defined to mean that the thing in |
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1027 question cannot be harmed by the condition in question and automatically |
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1028 makes saving throws or ability checks against it... /but/ actual |
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1029 /attacks/ based on the thing in question still can hurt the thing, but |
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1030 can only cause Stun damage, not Lethal. |
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1031 |
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1032 Lastly, one complaint often leveled against the Hero System is that |
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1033 there is no simple, clean way to model "X is immune to fire" (or cold, |
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1034 or electricity...) in it. Any "immunity to fire" would have to be |
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1035 defined in System terms as something like some large number of points of |
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1036 Energy Defense with a Limitation of "only versus fire" (or Damage |
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1037 Reduction only versus fire coupled with ED only versus fire, or there |
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1038 are other alternative builds). The exact System effect of "immune to |
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1039 fire" would depend on how you built it. |
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1040 |
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1041 Thus, in each of these four games, the Setting fact "fire giants are |
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1042 immune to fire" would mean different things -- because of the three |
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1043 different Systems. |
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1044 Logged |
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1045 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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1046 |
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1047 |
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1048 *M. J. Young |
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1049 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712>* |
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1050 Member |
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1051 |
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1052 Posts: 2121 |
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1053 |
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1054 1735114 <http://web.icq.com/whitepages/about_me/1,,,00.html?Uin=1735114> |
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1055 MarkJYoung <aim:goim?screenname=MarkJYoung&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?> |
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1056 tiras1 <http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=tiras1> |
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1057 View Profile |
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1058 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=712> WWW |
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1059 <http://www.mjyoung.net/> Email <mailto:mjyoung@mjyoung.net> Personal |
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1060 Message (Offline) |
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1061 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=712> |
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1062 |
|
1063 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128350#msg128350> |
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1064 *Wait, What Matters Again? |
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1065 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12001.msg128350#msg128350>* |
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1066 |
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1067 « *Reply #14 on:* July 15, 2004, 03:35:57 PM » |
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1068 |
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1069 |
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1070 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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1071 Dang, Ben. To quote an excellent movie, "Now you walk into a bar, and |
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1072 sailors come running out." |
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1073 |
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1074 This idea seems to have popped up everywhere today. I'll call your |
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1075 attention to my reply to Sean's thread |
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1076 /http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12012 <"<a>">Setting as Part |
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1077 of System/, and say see that for why I think that's correct, and perhaps |
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1078 more helpfully /in what sense/ that is correct. |
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1079 Quote from: John Kim |
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1080 So here's the big question. So creating new characters in Timelord is a |
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1081 change to the system, just as much so as changing the resolution |
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1082 mechanics. But we commonly think that, say, creating a setting for The |
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1083 Pool is not a change to system. But that seems to make them unequal. A |
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1084 problem with "incoherence" as a design criteria is that the less that |
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1085 you specify with a game, the less likely that parts will clash. |
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1086 |
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1087 Sort of. That is, that is correct as far as it goes, but it misses the |
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1088 other side. At some point you create the potential for incoherence by |
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1089 failing to provide sufficient information to inform play. |
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1090 |
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1091 Incoherent design means design that fosters incoherent play. In complex |
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1092 design, this most commonly happens because rules prove to be |
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1093 contradictory in what they encourage, and players develop their groups' |
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1094 systems based on which rules fit their expectations for the game. If |
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1095 players in the same group have different expectations based on |
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1096 emphasizing and deemphasizing different rules in the text, incoherence |
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1097 results from the conflicts in those expectations. |
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1098 |
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1099 It is less common but just as plausible for incoherence to result from a |
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1100 failure to provide sufficient information to inform play. If after |
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1101 reading the rules I don't actually know what it is you expect of a game, |
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1102 and the rules as writ are insufficient to cause that to occur if I |
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1103 follow them, then I'm going to start "filling in the gaps" with what "I |
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1104 think" the designer intended. This, too, can create incoherence, if in |
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1105 the absence of sufficient directive we have different ideas of what the |
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1106 designer intended, and in structuring what we think was intended we |
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1107 create conflicting systems from the same minimalist rules. |
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1108 |
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1109 Rules heavy systems, detailed and expansive packages, don't necessarily |
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1110 lead to incoherence, as long as that which is provided works together |
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1111 correctly. Rules light systems and systems without setting don't |
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1112 necessarily lead to incoherence as long as there is sufficient guidance |
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1113 to point to the way the game is played. I hope Multiverser is an example |
|
1114 of success in the former category; I think Universalis is a success in |
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1115 the latter. |
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1116 |
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1117 --M. J. Young |
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1118 Logged |
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1119 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=helpadmin;help=see_member_ip> |
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1120 |
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1121 |
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1122 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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1123 Check out /Multiverser <http://www.mjyoung.net/publish/>/ |
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1124 M. J. Young Net <http://www.mjyoung.net/> |
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1125 |
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1126 *Pages:* [*1*] 2 |
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