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1 http://www.lumpley.com/archive/156.html |
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2 |
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3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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4 |
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5 anyway. <opine.html> |
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6 A Penny for Your Thoughts <mailto:lumpley@earthlink.net> |
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7 |
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8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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9 |
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10 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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11 |
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12 *1-18-05* |
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13 *How RPG Rules Work* |
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14 |
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15 This is description, not prescription. |
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16 |
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17 The way I figure it, an RPG's rules coordinate three things: |
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18 |
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19 The fictional things and events and stuff in the game. The interactions |
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20 of the players themselves. Dice, numbers, words, maps - real-world |
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21 tokens, things, props, representations. Emily calls 'em "cues" and I |
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22 think that's just right. |
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23 |
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24 If you can pick it up and hand it to another player, or change it with a |
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25 pencil and eraser, it's a real-world cue. If it exists only in our heads |
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26 and our conversation, it's in-game. |
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27 |
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28 So here's a rule: "1. Don't mess with the dark forest to the North, it's |
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29 Vincent's." |
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30 |
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31 This rule coordinates the interactions of us, the players, with the |
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32 made-up stuff in the game. The rule says that if the in-game stuff comes |
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33 to include our characters entering the forest, we change our |
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34 interactions in a particular way: we defer to me, Vincent, about what's |
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35 what. |
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36 |
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37 The rightward-pointing arrow is "our characters entering the forest," |
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38 the leftward-pointing arrow is "we defer to Vincent about what's what." |
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39 |
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40 Here's a rule: "2. Subtract the roll on the damage die from your |
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41 character's hit points." |
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42 |
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43 This rule coordinates our interactions with the real-world cues we're |
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44 employing. The leftward-pointing arrow is "the roll on the damage die," |
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45 the rightward-pointing arrow is "subtract from your character's hit |
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46 points." The die represents every real-world thing we're using: dice, |
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47 character sheets, life stones, everything. |
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48 |
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49 Notice that non-RPG games' rules are all entirely like this one. |
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50 Monopoly, Chess, Die Siedler - they have no fictional in-game, just |
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51 people interacting and real-world tokens. |
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52 |
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53 Here's a rule: "3. If your character has higher ground than his |
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54 opponent, make your attack roll at +3." |
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55 |
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56 Now this rule takes information from the fictional in-game and applies |
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57 it to the real-world tokens we're using. The long rightward-pointing |
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58 arrow is "your character has higher ground than his opponent, +3," and |
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59 the leftward-pointing arrow is "make your attack roll." |
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60 |
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61 I've drawn the long arrow /through/ the people because of course it's |
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62 the people who interpret the in-game and apply the rule. |
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63 |
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64 Here's a rule: "4. If your character takes damage greater than 4 on the |
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65 damage roll, he's knocked down." |
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66 |
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67 Here the rules instruct us to have certain things happen fictionally |
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68 when certain things happen in the real world. The rightward-pointing |
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69 arrow is "the damage roll" and the long leftward-pointing arrow is |
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70 "damage greater than 4, knocked down." |
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71 |
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72 Here's a rule: "5. If your character's opponent tries to disarm your |
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73 character, make a Hold Weapon check. If you fail, your character is |
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74 disarmed, and you thus suffer the unarmed penalty until you retrieve |
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75 your weapon." |
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76 |
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77 The more complicated your rule, the more complicated the arrangement of |
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78 arrows. The short leftward-pointing arrow is "your character's opponent |
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79 tries to disarm your character." The long rightward-pointing arrow is |
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80 "make a Hold Weapon check." The long leftward-pointing arrow is "your |
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81 character is disarmed" - the part where we imagine your character's |
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82 sword skittering across the rocks. The short rightward-pointing arrow, |
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83 at last, is "suffer the unarmed penalty." |
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84 |
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85 If this were the Weapon Breakage rule instead of the Weapon Droppage |
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86 rule, the short rightward-pointing arrow would be both "suffer the |
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87 unarmed penalty" and "add 'broken' to your weapon on your character sheet." |
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88 |
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89 So now, we employ various rules in various orders and combinations over |
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90 time. |
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91 |
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92 Right? |
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93 |
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94 This animation shows kind of what Dogs in the Vineyard or D&D or |
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95 Shadowrun or PTA or V:tM is like in play. |
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96 |
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97 The way Charles' group plays Ars Magica would have practically only the |
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98 arrows between the players and the in-game lit up: |
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99 |
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100 (I'm very open to correction about this, but it's my impression.) |
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101 |
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102 The way my group plays Ars Magica would be about the same, but we'd have |
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103 the arrows crossing the players light up a few times per session: |
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104 |
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105 |
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106 And finally, Jonathan Tweet in /Everway/ describes three kinds of rules: |
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107 Drama, Fortune and Karma. |
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108 |
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109 Rules like this are Drama rules. |
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110 |
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111 |
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112 Rules like this are Fortune rules if the real-world cues include dice or |
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113 some other randomizer; Karma rules if they don't. |
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114 |
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115 On 1-19-05, *Matt* wrote: |
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116 |
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117 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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118 I really only clicked to see if comments were working, but now I feel |
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119 obliged to come up with something. |
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120 |
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121 My ideal game, I think, has a balance of movement across all the arrows. |
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122 This might be a useful diagram for identifying the kind of play people |
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123 prefer by making certain arrows darker, etc. Or not. Shit, it's only 6 |
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124 here and what am I doing up? |
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125 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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126 |
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127 On 1-19-05, *anon.* wrote: |
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128 |
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129 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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130 |
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131 |
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132 "Notice that non-RPG games' rules are all entirely like this one. |
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133 Monopoly, Chess, Die Siedler - they have no fictional in-game, just |
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134 people interacting and real-world tokens." |
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135 |
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136 I would strongly disagree with this. The fictional worlds may not be as |
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137 pronounced or as strongly identified with as in RPGs, but they |
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138 definately exist. |
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139 |
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140 Case in point: Diplomacy. There's you intereacting with other people and |
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141 the game board, but there's almost always a shared imaginative space of |
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142 diplomatic missions running back and forth and high-level meetings and |
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143 so on. |
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144 |
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145 Even Monopoly can work this way. Who does not make sound effects when |
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146 they move their pieces? Who does not chortle like Snidely Whiplash when |
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147 they send another player to bankruptcy? And in these moments, a |
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148 fictional scene plays out. |
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149 |
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150 Who knows, perhaps when Kasparov is advancing his knight, he's thinking |
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151 of a medieval kingdom? |
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152 |
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153 later |
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154 Tom |
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155 |
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156 |
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157 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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158 |
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159 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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160 |
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161 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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162 I guess somebody was going to say that. |
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163 |
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164 Maybe my best answer is: |
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165 |
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166 Playing Monopoly, no arrows come rightward out of the fiction. Imagine |
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167 whatever you want, nobody else cares. |
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168 |
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169 When we talk about the imaginary stuff in the game re: rules, we aren't |
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170 talking about what I'm imagining in my own personal head anyway. We're |
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171 talking about the shared fiction, which means that it's /communicated/ |
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172 and /agreed to/. Kasparov might be thinking about a kingdom or his |
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173 laundry, I'm pretty sure he's not saying it all out loud and trying to |
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174 get his opponent to buy into it. |
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175 |
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176 And just to head off the other half: of /course/ the players can create |
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177 house rules to make Monopoly into a roleplaying game. Whatever! I don't |
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178 think it's especially controversial to observe that, as written, |
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179 Monopoly ain't one. Lord I hope it's not. |
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180 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181 |
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182 On 1-19-05, *C. Edwards* wrote: |
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183 |
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184 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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185 "Notice that non-RPG games' rules are all entirely like this one. |
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186 Monopoly, Chess, Die Siedler - they have no fictional in-game, just |
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187 people interacting and real-world tokens." |
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188 |
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189 I totally accept and enjoy those kinds of rules in a non-RPG. They seem |
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190 annoying, unsatisfying, and extraneous most of the time when they are |
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191 incorporated into a role-playing game. It almost seems like a wasted |
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192 action to have rules that don't directly interact with the shared |
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193 imaginary space. |
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194 |
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195 I want to achieve nearly 100% efficiency in my rule/work to shared |
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196 imaginary space exchange. |
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197 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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198 |
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199 On 1-19-05, *Bryant* wrote: |
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200 |
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201 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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202 Nice! Very nice. I agree with this 100% and I like the arrows a lot. |
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203 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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204 |
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205 On 1-19-05, *Chris* wrote: |
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206 |
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207 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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208 Wow! Vincent- it just struck me how much power goes into the traditional |
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209 GM's hands in that they get final say not only over what goes into that |
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210 imaginary space, but also what effects the imaginary space has back OUT |
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211 into the game itself. So, say a player wants to put a character in a |
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212 tactically advantageous situation, and even the GM agrees("You're on |
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213 higher ground, with the sun to your back, etc.") but only if the GM |
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214 decides to apply modifers back out to the Tokens in play, will the SIS |
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215 have a solid effect. |
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216 |
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217 This is probably one of the best little ways of explaining the whole |
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218 social effect of gaming there. Neat. |
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219 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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220 |
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221 On 1-19-05, *Ben Lehman* wrote: |
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222 |
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223 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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224 I have this whole essay brewing about this two rightmost little arrows. |
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225 If you're going to beat me to it, let me know. |
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226 |
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227 yrs-- |
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228 --Ben |
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229 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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230 |
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231 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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232 |
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233 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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234 I have no plans! |
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235 |
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236 What's your essay going to say? |
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237 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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238 |
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239 On 1-19-05, *Ben Lehman* wrote: |
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240 |
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241 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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242 Like most of my essays, it's going to say "Look, a thing!" |
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243 |
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244 We physicists aren't so keen on the "persuasive argument" thing. |
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245 |
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246 Essentially, I think some games have something called "toy quality" |
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247 where the game's mechanic itself is fun to play without needing to |
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248 reference the SIS at all. I think that games with toy quality are a |
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249 bridge to board and card and dice games. I also think it might be a key |
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250 to Gamism, but I'm not sure. |
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251 |
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252 yrs-- |
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253 --Ben |
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254 |
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255 P.S. Hey, remember when I was talking about how "everything is system?" |
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256 I was going "look, see, those arrows are symmetric!" Just couldn't |
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257 express myself well. |
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258 |
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259 P.P.S. Heck, I still don't know what system is. Is it that box on the |
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260 right? Or is that just mechanics? |
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261 |
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262 P.P.P.S. Say we're using a published setting with canon guidebooks. Is |
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263 the setting in the right box or the left box? |
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264 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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265 |
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266 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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267 |
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268 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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269 The arrows are System. System is what we /do/. |
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270 |
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271 The left box is a snapshot: what's happening in the game right now. You |
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272 can imagine its contents changing over the course of play, alongside the |
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273 arrows lighting up and going out. |
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274 |
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275 The right box is everything that's real that we consult to help us |
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276 decide what's happening in the left box. Along with dice and the writing |
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277 on character sheets and stuff, it can include the contents of setting |
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278 guidebooks. Really though, the vast most of the contents of setting |
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279 guidebooks simply don't appear in the illustration; they wait outside of |
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280 frame in case we want them. |
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281 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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282 |
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283 On 1-19-05, *Ben Lehman* wrote: |
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284 |
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285 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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286 Check. |
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287 |
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288 Rules printed in the game book: Cue or System? |
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289 |
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290 yrs-- |
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291 --Ben |
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292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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293 |
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294 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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295 |
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296 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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297 System if we're using them right now, nothing if we aren't. "Using them" |
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298 includes things like "if we get into combat, there goes the whole rest |
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299 of the session - let's talk to them instead." |
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300 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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301 |
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302 On 1-19-05, *Ben Lehman* wrote: |
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303 |
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304 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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305 Cool. |
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306 |
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307 Now I still can't understand that other thread, where I was like "it's |
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308 all system" and other people were like "what?" I was hoping it would |
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309 illuminate that. I think I'm still right, though. |
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310 |
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311 Anyway, thanks a bunch. Just going to go stare at the animations now. |
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312 |
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313 yrs-- |
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314 --Ben |
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315 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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316 |
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317 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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318 |
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319 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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320 Link me to the other thread? |
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321 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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322 |
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323 On 1-19-05, *Ben Lehman* wrote: |
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324 |
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325 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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326 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12001 |
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327 |
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328 And look! There's your diagram! |
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329 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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330 |
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331 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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332 |
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333 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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334 Linkinated <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12001>. |
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335 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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336 |
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337 On 1-19-05, *nothings* wrote: |
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338 |
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339 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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340 I'm sure you've thought of all of this already, Vincent, but I found |
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341 your explanation a little confusing, so I have tried to go through in a |
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342 little more detail and a slightly different focus. |
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343 |
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344 http://nothings.org/writing/rpg/elements.html |
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345 |
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346 My apologies if I've slipped on any Forge-ian terminology, as I'm not |
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347 actually a regular reader. |
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348 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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349 |
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350 On 1-19-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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351 |
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352 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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353 Nothings: linkinated <http://nothings.org/writing/rpg/elements.html>. |
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354 (corrected) |
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355 |
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356 Well, I agree that you have a different focus. I think that the |
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357 differences between mine and yours can probably all be summed up in |
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358 their opening sentences: my "...an RPG's rules coordinate..." vs your |
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359 "...the activity of game-playing can be reasonably characterized by the |
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360 interaction of..." |
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361 |
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362 Like, I don't include a picture of the rules because all I'm talking |
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363 about is the rules. I also don't include props or snacks - except as |
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364 real things inside the d6 picture, if and only if a rule refers to them. |
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365 |
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366 Also having a GM outside of the group is nonsense, no matter how you |
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367 slice it. If you want to talk about distribution of authority within the |
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368 group, cool, and that's when a GM can come up - but the GM's a person |
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369 same as the rest of us. |
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370 |
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371 And about my arrows and dice: I consider the interesting bit of rolling |
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372 a die to be the interpretation of it, not the rolling of it. Thus "roll |
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373 the die" is an arrow pointing from the die to the players; from the |
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374 origin of the information to its destination. |
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375 |
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376 Um, so now what? This conversation will make more sense if either you |
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377 ask me to comment on yours, which I'd be happy to do in another thread, |
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378 or else you ask me questions about mine, which I'd be happy to answer |
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379 here. Or both! |
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380 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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381 |
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382 On 1-20-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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383 |
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384 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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385 Ben, I reread that thread, most of it anyway. Here's a thing: |
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386 |
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387 The goal of designing rules is to change social contract. |
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388 |
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389 When I design a set of rules, I'm trying to change the way that people |
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390 relate to one another, within the confines of the game. I'm trying to |
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391 force, trick, or provoke them into treating one another in particular, |
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392 possibly unnatural ways. I'm fuckin' around with their working creative |
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393 relationships. |
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394 |
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395 Beyond apportioning credibility, rules create /permission/ and |
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396 /expectation/. Permission and expectation are the real building blocks |
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397 of social contract; cunningly designed rules have access to human |
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398 interactions at a deep level. |
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399 |
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400 So, sure, there are no complete RPGs; as you say, the complete RPG is |
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401 playerless. It may work better to think of RPG rules as strong or weak, |
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402 flexible or brittle: a strong RPG draws the players into its particular |
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403 play, where a weak one allows them to play however comes naturally. A |
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404 flexible RPG can survive or redirect a broad range of preexisting social |
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405 dynamics, where a brittle one requires a particular social dynamic to |
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406 already be in place, or the game crashes. |
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407 |
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408 Am I making sense? Am I kind of on your topic? |
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409 |
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410 *I bumped this thread up to the front page. Let's talk about my diagrams |
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411 here.* |
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412 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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413 |
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414 On 1-20-05, *Rognli* wrote: |
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415 |
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416 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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417 This is like the Central Theorem of Roleplaying. For dummies. With |
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418 friendly, unscary illustrations. It doesn't get any better... |
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419 |
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420 Can I translate it for publication in the only Norwegian gaming-zine, |
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421 "Imagonem"? And before you ask; no we can't pay you, cause we don't make |
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422 any money. But I will tell everyone you are very cool. |
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423 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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424 |
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425 On 1-20-05, *Vincent* wrote: |
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426 |
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427 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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428 Sure! |
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429 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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430 |
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431 Handle: |
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432 |
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433 |
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434 Consider including your email address in the body of your comment. |
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435 |
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436 anyway. <opine.html> |
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437 |
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438 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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439 |
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440 |