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    43 

    44 Author 	Topic: About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

    45  (Read 1308 times)

    46 

    47 *Ron Edwards

    48 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*

    49 Global Moderator

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    59 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11888#msg11888>

    60 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

    61 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11888#msg11888>*

    62 « * on:* January 21, 2002, 09:58:55 AM »

    63 	

    64 

    65 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    66 Hey there,

    67 

    68 I'm starting a few separate threads about Fang's game Scattershot. All

    69 of them are based on the content of these threads (at the date of this

    70 post) and some private messaging:

    71 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1073 <"<a>">I: Core concept

    72 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1087 <"<a>">II: Whence

    73 go the mechanics

    74 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1080 <"<a>">III:

    75 Difference between players and GM

    76 http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1096 <"<a>">IV: Sorting

    77 out the nuts and bolts

    78 And http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1122 <"<a>">V:

    79 Actual mechanics

    80 

    81 This thread is about the initial Premise of the game, and you know what?

    82 It has one. A really interesting one. You see, Scattershot is about

    83 Exploring Situation and System in depth, and that means it "begins" or

    84 "looks" like a Simulationist type o'thing. But the actual plan - which I

    85 like to think of Uncle Fang's Lurking Desire - is to provide tools for

    86 "transition" to Narrativist play /insofar as anyone wants to/. The

    87 Narrativist-type Premise arises, therefore, from various passions or

    88 concerns incited by various instances during play. Once that happens,

    89 the mechanics enhance these elements' ability to become major engines of

    90 events during play, as determined by the players.

    91 

    92 I use Fang's term Transition here because it makes a lot of sense - a

    93 form of Drift which is facilitated, consistent, and accessible merely

    94 through application of the rules in particular ways, as opposed merely

    95 to tweaking, revising, ignoring, or overriding existing rules (which

    96 Drift generally does).

    97 

    98 Now that means that at first glance, Scattershot has plenty of

    99 traditional-gaming trappings that - for some of us - have an alarm-bell

   100 quality. You buy a bunch of skills with points, said skills being rated

   101 according to how easy they are to learn and hence costing more. There

   102 are six attributes starting with "Strength." There is a big chart called

   103 UE that cross-references abilities' values with extent, magnitude,

   104 duration, and all that sort of thing (very like DC Heroes at first glance).

   105 

   106 My point is that these alarm bells are false. Fang has written the

   107 material to be accessible specifically to the old-school gamer, in a

   108 deliberate 70s-gaming kind of structure. But that structure is much like

   109 a swaybacked horse with a sleepy expression, which grunts a little when

   110 you pat it on the nose. Little do you suspect what it will do when you

   111 mount up ?

   112 

   113 The context for play is intended to be customizable to various degrees

   114 (1) of depth of rules-use and (2) of rules-use per unit time. Cool.

   115 Let's settle at whatever one we want and take a look at "medium"

   116 Scattershot, what most of us want to know about based on my readings and

   117 interactions at the Forge.

   118 

   119 Basically, you're looking at a character with six attributes: Strength,

   120 Agility, Hit Points, Reaction, Observation, and Power. (Yes, /I know/ it

   121 looks like 1980! Chill out! Uncle Fang is merely disguising his Lurking

   122 Desire very well.) You buy a bunch of abilities at various ratings with

   123 a starting bank of points. "Abilities" cover all sorts of things, like

   124 skills strictly speaking, magic stuff, etc.

   125 

   126 Ya do things with your abilities. You roll 2d10; get under the rating,

   127 you did it; equal it, you barely did it; over it, you fail. The

   128 difference is called the MIB and is taken to the UE. The UE allows you

   129 to modify the difference (called MIB) between your roll and the rating

   130 with the "magnitude" column of the UE for a related characteristic - ie,

   131 you hit a guy with your Punch ability, but the effect (on the table) is

   132 modified because your Strength rating gives a nice multiple. Again, all

   133 very early 80s-Sim, Mayfair-feeling.

   134 

   135 [Fang, I know I'm skimming various details, especially the fact that

   136 opposed rolls actually use the difference between attacker's and

   137 defender's MIBs on the UE, and the Residual Modifiers thing. Bear with

   138 me, I'm not trying to present Scattershot with every nuance but to show

   139 the Transition in action, and only presenting stuff that lets this point

   140 be made.]

   141 

   142 Ha ha! You're in for it now! Check out the following:

   143 

   144 1) The group has set a "Hard limit" for certain MIB's, either successful

   145 or unsuccessful. It might be 1 or 7 or 10 or whatever. If a rolled MIB

   146 (remember, diff between your roll and your rating) exceeds the hard

   147 limit, /the player of the recipient of the effect/ now states why this

   148 single event is a life-changing, significant, later-to-be-acted-upon

   149 element of the character's life. This is a big deal, eh? Think "Kicker."

   150 (Oh, and it's optional if the MIB is under the hard limit; the hard

   151 limit means you /have/ to do it. Uncle Fang cannot help himself and

   152 releases a sinister belly-laugh.)

   153 

   154 2) If you're only a couple MIB shy of succeeding, feel free to adust any

   155 UE feature to /make/ your roll successful, ie, "it takes longer" or

   156 anything similar. You can also do the reverse, using excessive

   157 successful MIB to adjust the degree or magnitude of the effect for the

   158 better. This is player-driven and highly customizable. (Did I mention

   159 metagame?)

   160 

   161 3) Experience dice are being handed out left and right all the time

   162 during play. You spend these dice by adding them to any roll you feel

   163 like, either before or after the basic 2d10 roll. (Metagame and player

   164 power are not only present in Scattershot; after an initial "closeted"

   165 phase, they are buck naked and dancing ecstatically down the street.)

   166 [These dice may also be spent to improve one's character, with a mildly

   167 randomized mechanic.]

   168 

   169 To sum up, I dub Scattershot the first Transitional Game Design that I

   170 have seen. It presents a solid/realistic (in the specific-to-setting

   171 sense) Simulationist framework for establishing what's up, what you're

   172 looking at, and who's who - but also provides a tremendous number of

   173 techniques to permit metagame, Author stance, and player-power-sharing

   174 techniques during play, many of which may facilitate a Narrativist

   175 application. The primary technique is Fortune-in-the-Middle, which all

   176 three of the numbered items above not only make possible, but loom up

   177 like ? well, I'm out of metaphors. They loom up big.

   178 

   179 My question is how Gamism is or would be a direction of Transition, or

   180 whether that's even a design goal. If not, no big deal. If so, though,

   181 I'm not sure how it (ie mechanics to facilitate it) gets into there.

   182 Insight about that would be appreciated. The thread that looked like it

   183 might discuss that, based on its title, ended up being about something

   184 else, unless I misunderstood it.

   185 

   186 I still have plenty of questions, especially about certain mechanics and

   187 especially about how IIEC is handled during/post rolling in a conflict

   188 situation. But those are for other threads, soon to come. This one's the

   189 goals/GNS thing, and I am willing to be corrected by Fang regarding my

   190 impressions, or to see what others have made of them and the game itself.

   191 

   192 Best,

   193 Ron

   194 	Logged

   195 

   196 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*

   197 Member

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   204 <http://www.scattershotgames.com>

   205 	

   206 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11922#msg11922>

   207 *[Scattershot] About what it's about (GNS yipyap included)

   208 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11922#msg11922>*

   209 « *Reply #1 on:* January 21, 2002, 10:35:39 PM »

   210 	

   211 

   212 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   213 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   214 This thread is about the initial Premise of the game, and you know what?

   215 It has one. A really interesting one. You see, Scattershot is about

   216 Exploring Situation and System in depth, and that means it "begins" or

   217 "looks" like a Simulationist type o'thing. But the actual plan - which I

   218 like to think of Uncle Fang's Lurking Desire - is to provide tools for

   219 "transition" to Narrativist play /insofar as anyone wants to/. The

   220 Narrativist-type Premise arises, therefore, from various passions or

   221 concerns incited by various instances during play. Once that happens,

   222 the mechanics enhance these elements' ability to become major engines of

   223 events during play, as determined by the players.

   224 

   225 I use Fang's term Transition here because it makes a lot of sense - a

   226 form of Drift which is facilitated, consistent, and accessible merely

   227 through application of the rules in particular ways, as opposed merely

   228 to tweaking, revising, ignoring, or overriding existing rules (which

   229 Drift generally does).

   230 

   231 Now that means that at first glance, Scattershot has plenty of

   232 traditional-gaming trappings that - for some of us - have an alarm-bell

   233 quality.

   234 

   235 You know, that was one of the things that scared me the most about

   236 posting it here (if you needed to understand my reticence).

   237 

   238 And it's no surprise that you see the premise is of exploring System and

   239 Situation, this is after all just the mechanics.  If I understand your

   240 use of the terms, I have a whole 'nother book of additional rules (the

   241 larger one at that), I call 'em techniques, that deal with attention to

   242 Color, Character, and Setting.  Color and Setting are dependant upon the

   243 genre-reliant materials this Generalist mechanic gets published with (we

   244 are preparing 12 sets so far).  Attention to Character is one of the

   245 major pieces of the techniques section (and I must apologize for the

   246 fact that I am still pulling this information together and don't even

   247 have a rough draft /outline/ yet).

   248 

   249 I separate them into techniques and mechanics because of some of the

   250 priorities of Transitionism.  (Many of those 'old school gamers' recoil

   251 in horror from /mechanics/ for Narrativism, but strangely when they are

   252 called 'techniques,' think that they're just quirky advice.)

   253 

   254 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   255 My point is that these alarm bells are false. Fang has written the

   256 material to be accessible specifically to the old-school gamer, in a

   257 deliberate 70s-gaming kind of structure. But that structure is much like

   258 a swaybacked horse with a sleepy expression, which grunts a little when

   259 you pat it on the nose. Little do you suspect what it will do when you

   260 mount up....

   261 

   262 [Editted for brevity.]

   263 

   264 To sum up, I dub Scattershot the first Transitional Game Design that I

   265 have seen. It presents a solid/realistic (in the specific-to-setting

   266 sense) Simulationist framework for establishing what's up, what you're

   267 looking at, and who's who - but also provides a tremendous number of

   268 techniques to permit metagame, Author stance, and player-power-sharing

   269 techniques during play, many of which may facilitate a Narrativist

   270 application. The primary technique is Fortune-in-the-Middle, which all

   271 three of the numbered items above not only make possible, but loom up

   272 like ? well, I'm out of metaphors. They loom up big.

   273 

   274 My question is how Gamism is or would be a direction of Transition, or

   275 whether that's even a design goal. If not, no big deal. If so, though,

   276 I'm not sure how it (ie mechanics to facilitate it) gets into there.

   277 Insight about that would be appreciated. The thread that looked like it

   278 might discuss that, based on its title, ended up being about something

   279 else, unless I misunderstood it.

   280 

   281 Gamism /is/ one of the Transitional design goals (whether I serve it

   282 well or not, is a good question).  Some ways we do this, I have

   283 described elsewhere.  Raising the 'hard limit' on the MIB turns it into

   284 not much more than a clever way to skip having elaborate 'critical

   285 hit/fumble' tables (in keeping with the 80's disguise of the work).

   286  Making Experience Dice rare turns them into another resource for the

   287 savvy Gamist to sheperd facing the larger challenge presented.

   288 

   289 I do have a favor to ask.  I am not sure how you define Gamism in the

   290 time since you came to understand and like the mode.  Can you give me

   291 some idea what you would look for in a Gamist game; that I can better

   292 respond to with how the mechanics of Scattershot (might) meet those needs.

   293 

   294 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   295 I still have plenty of questions, especially about certain mechanics and

   296 especially about how IIEC is handled during/post rolling in a conflict

   297 situation.

   298 

   299 I /would/ like a chance to toss in a response prior to getting these

   300 other threads started.

   301 

   302 In the sequence of resolution, Scattershot somewhat collapses the Intent

   303 and Initiation into a single point.  When a player indicates their

   304 action for resolution, the action is considered begun.  The reason I say

   305 they are combined is because of how some actions indicated by a player

   306 are result of a somewhat predetermined script of actions (the following

   307 actions material).  The easiest example would be the riposte, it follows

   308 a parry thus the parry contains the Intent for the riposte.  As I (in

   309 possibly the best attempt ever) described a few minutes ago in another

   310 thread, the 'Effects phase' (I know it doesn't precisely work like that,

   311 but you get my drift) occurs when the dice roll and the chosen actions

   312 of the interacting parties are combined.  The reason I bring this up

   313 here is because it talks some about one way that Scattershot approaches

   314 Gamism.  Our more Gamist playtesters occasionally turn this

   315 'calculation' phase into a bidding war using the FitM mechanics

   316 Scattershot has.

   317 

   318 As for directly connecting to IIEC, I think a lot of that varies

   319 depending on whether you are using Scattershot in General, Specific, or

   320 Mechanical play.  In General play almost everything functions as

   321 Conclusion (That is the term, isn't it?).  In Specific play, it can

   322 range all the way from Intent when the Speaker is depending heavily on

   323 the resolution mechanic to generate /most/ of the detail, to Effect when

   324 the mechanics are invoked by someone other than the Speaker, calling the

   325 narrative direction into question (such as introducing complications).

   326  As above, Mechanical play functions on some curious fusion of Intent

   327 and Initiation.  Does that clear anything up?

   328 

   329 Fang Langford

   330 	Logged

   331 

   332 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   333 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

   334 Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

   335 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

   336 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

   337 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

   338 

   339 *Ron Edwards

   340 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*

   341 Global Moderator

   342 Member

   343 *

   344 Posts: 12610

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   351 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11941#msg11941>

   352 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   353 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11941#msg11941>*

   354 « *Reply #2 on:* January 22, 2002, 07:40:14 AM »

   355 	

   356 

   357 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   358 Hi Fang!

   359 

   360 Lots of topics to deal with here ?

   361 

   362 I definitely hear you about the Color, Situation, Character, and Setting

   363 material coming later. The key to me is that at first glance, the setup

   364 seems highly focused on Exploration of /something/, and given the other

   365 material you mentioned, Exploration of /everything/. No criticism! As I

   366 said, I appreciate the "reassurance" quality this has on the old-school.

   367 

   368 GAMISM AND SCATTERSHOT

   369 My take on Gamism seems to raise some hackles, and I'd request that we

   370 deal with it here as it stands: Fang is asking me what I think; this is

   371 not a good venue to tell me I'm wrong (that would be the GNS forum).

   372 

   373 <Gamism babble ensues>

   374 At this time, I look at Gamism as simply the enjoyment of competition in

   375 an extremely broad sense. People can have different roles in that

   376 competition, up to and including a referee-role (he does not compete

   377 with the players, but his presence means the competition can happen in a

   378 certain way).

   379 

   380 A lot of suffering seems to occur when people consider a published

   381 scenario - how can you "compete" with it? That always puzzles me. Of

   382 course you can, it seems, insofar as the game designers do exist as

   383 humans, and it's fun to pit oneself (or one's team) against someone

   384 who's posed a problem for you. Or even if one imagined some weird

   385 scenario that was not written by humans, it's fun to see whether you can

   386 do better than anyone else who's trying it.

   387 

   388 If anyone wants to call all this competitive stuff "struggle" or

   389 "testing yourself" or whatnot, they may go right ahead. I think it's a

   390 matter of sugar-coating, rather than useful rhetoric, but I'm willing to

   391 give a little. Gareth's points about that in the GNS forum are extremely

   392 well-taken; we don't /exactly/ agree, but I think his points must be

   393 taken into account.

   394 

   395 I also have perceived a certain weird assumption that a Gamist would

   396 automatically "hate to lose," or would necessarily be obsessed with

   397 "balance," which doesn't match my observations of the /foundations/ of

   398 that mode of play, much as it might apply for some individuals.

   399 <Gamism babble is over>

   400 

   401 OK. So how does this apply to Scattershot? You have mentioned the

   402 strategic use of experience-point spending or the role of the hard

   403 limit, but to me, these seem more to me like techniques of play

   404 (resource management e.g.) that apply nicely to the goal of Narrativism

   405 as much as to Gamism, perhaps more so. Let's take a look at a

   406 Scattershot player who has glommed onto these techniques and likes them

   407 a lot. Basically, if he gets a "do better than Bob hair up his butt

   408 (even if Bob is abstract)," rather than a "story hair up his butt," then

   409 he's transitioned to Gamism.

   410 

   411 At my current understanding of the rules, though, which hair gets up his

   412 butt is pretty much a matter of individual taste, and perhaps elements

   413 of the Color, Situation, Setting, and so forth of the instance of play.

   414 It seems to me that the hair is most likely the "story" one because of

   415 the hard limit, especially - being required to make that event important

   416 to the character's future decisions seems more of a moral-Premise

   417 judgment-call than it does a strategic decision regarding advantage or

   418 individual performance (in the sense of acing a test or winning a race).

   419 

   420 IIEC AND SCATTERSHOT

   421 (Intent, Initiation, Execution, Completion)

   422 I think you've laid out the issue pretty clearly for me now, across the

   423 range of General, Specific, and Mechanical play. I do think it might be

   424 interesting to see how the differences of IIEC application might

   425 /change/ over time, if the group were minded to do so. Thus, if they

   426 begin with a strong commitment to Mechanical play, is there any

   427 provision for shifting later, without (much of) a hitch-and-clutch? If

   428 so, then Scattershot is really achieving something.

   429 

   430 Best,

   431 Ron

   432 	Logged

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   444 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11993#msg11993>

   445 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   446 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg11993#msg11993>*

   447 « *Reply #3 on:* January 22, 2002, 10:06:31 PM »

   448 	

   449 

   450 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   451 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   452 GAMISM AND SCATTERSHOT

   453 Quote from: Selected text on Gamism that Ron

   454 My take on Gamism seems to raise some hackles, and I'd request that we

   455 deal with it here as it stands: Fang is asking me what I think;

   456 

   457 I look at Gamism as simply the enjoyment of competition in an extremely

   458 broad sense.

   459 

   460 If anyone wants to call all this competitive stuff "struggle" or

   461 "testing yourself" or whatnot, they may go right ahead.

   462 

   463 OK. So how does this apply to Scattershot? You have mentioned the

   464 strategic use of experience-point spending or the role of the hard

   465 limit, but to me, these seem more to me like techniques of play

   466 (resource management e.g.)

   467 

   468 In my studies of the medium, I have identified one major component

   469 necessary for Gamism from a designer's perspective: structure.  I hear

   470 the ghost of its relevance whenever the 'yardstick' discussion comes up.

   471  I also hear it when the discussion turns 'win/lose.'  No matter what I

   472 think of those topics, the both speak of structure and consistency.

   473 

   474 The converse would be playing Gamist in a situation where nothing can be

   475 counted on, everything is in some state of flux.  I haven't experienced

   476 a happy Gamist who does not have some consistency or structure in what

   477 they are playing /with/.  As a designer, one kind of structure I can

   478 provide is mechanical.  I really appreciate what I learned by adapting

   479 Scattershot to contain a collectible card game; all those long

   480 discussions of game theory helped me make Scattershot's core mechanic as

   481 strong a structure as I could have hoped to make it.

   482 

   483 The other kind of structure I see commonly used has to do with a

   484 Gamist's exploration of Setting.  As surely as there is mechanical

   485 "competition" in the gladitorial arena, so too is there in the courtly

   486 life of king's favor.  One of the techniques I have already discussed

   487 here on the Forge has to do with simplifying the moderation of a

   488 background that has enough structure and consistency (as well as

   489 verisimilitude, but that's for another type of players altogether); I

   490 call it *Dynamic Status Quo

   491 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458&highlight=dynamic+status+quo>*.

   492 

   493 I see things like "resource management" being of value to Gamists

   494 especially when in concert with some kind of structure.  Under that

   495 premise, the meticulous nature of Scattershot's mechanics should fall

   496 clearly in that camp at least /mechanically/.

   497 

   498 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   499 but to me, these seem more to me like techniques of play (resource

   500 management e.g.) that apply nicely to the goal of Narrativism as much as

   501 to Gamism, perhaps more so. Let's take a look at a Scattershot player

   502 who has glommed onto these techniques and likes them a lot. Basically,

   503 if he gets a "do better than Bob hair up his butt (even if Bob is

   504 abstract)," rather than a "story hair up his butt," then he's

   505 transitioned to Gamism.

   506 

   507 At my current understanding of the rules, though, which hair gets up his

   508 butt is pretty much a matter of individual taste, and perhaps elements

   509 of the Color, Situation, Setting, and so forth of the instance of play.

   510 It seems to me that the hair is most likely the "story" one because of

   511 the hard limit, especially - being required to make that event important

   512 to the character's future decisions seems more of a moral-Premise

   513 judgment-call than it does a strategic decision regarding advantage or

   514 individual performance (in the sense of acing a test or winning a race).

   515 

   516 I might argue that you /do/ still have some bias towards Narrativism.

   517  In playtest, /how/ the Critical Juncture mechanic gets specifically

   518 used is almost a direct indicator of whether a player is Gamist,

   519 Narrativist, or Simulationist.  As you see it (and as I tend to express

   520 it, did I mention my continuing problems communicating?), a Narrativist

   521 will use the opportunity presented by exceeding the Critical Juncture to

   522 advance their thematic statement of a games premise (am I using those

   523 terms correctly?).

   524 

   525 A Gamist on the hand will take those opportunities to adopt additional

   526 liabilities (when it goes against them) or strategic advantages (when it

   527 goes for them).  One thing I neglected to include was that the *MIB*

   528 created when the Critical Juncture is exceeded, can be used (in a rare

   529 post-randomizing indexing on the UE Chart) as the foundation of adding a

   530 new disadvantage or problem.  (In my favorite example, when Robin in The

   531 Prince of Thieves first attacks the Sheriff, I call it a Telling Blow.

   532  The Sheriff's player, gamemaster or no, chooses to take an

   533 appearance-based disadvantage and play that off the character's vanity.

   534  I'm not entirely sure it had any bearing on the Theme explored by the

   535 film, but you can see how it created more 'challenge' for the Sheriff's

   536 player.)

   537 

   538 A Simulationist becomes evident for their interest in how such a change

   539 to their character bears on, and fits into, their explorations.  They

   540 seem to have an uncanny intuition for the Critical Juncture result

   541 that's /right/.

   542 

   543 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   544 IIEC AND SCATTERSHOT

   545 (Intent, Initiation, Execution, Completion)

   546 I think you've laid out the issue pretty clearly for me now, across the

   547 range of General, Specific, and Mechanical play. I do think it might be

   548 interesting to see how the differences of IIEC application might

   549 /change/ over time, if the group were minded to do so. Thus, if they

   550 begin with a strong commitment to Mechanical play, is there any

   551 provision for shifting later, without (much of) a hitch-and-clutch? If

   552 so, then Scattershot is really achieving something.

   553 

   554 Actually going 'up' from Mechanical play is about as hard as falling in

   555 love.  Once you stop going, "Okay, your two actions are done, now it's

   556 his turn," and skip using dice in every resolution bound to a Rating,

   557 you're at the 'bottom' of Specific play.  As you let the Ratings be more

   558 guidelines (as in "I've got a 14 that means I'm so good, I won't fail")

   559 and eventually leave the dice behind (except when you use them to create

   560 detail, often good to 'get the creative juices flowing'), you transcend

   561 Specific and grow into General play.

   562 

   563 What's missing so far is that these are just /the mechanics/.  There is

   564 a whole morass of information I call 'techniques.'  (You'd just call

   565 them 'lots more rules.')  Part of the difference, is the presentation.

   566  I intend to present the techniques in a fashion that /seems/ geared

   567 towards using them to determine what is good or bad /about any game/.

   568  It was quite odd to me to have this in mind only to later discover that

   569 the GNS was described as existing exactly for the same purpose.

   570 

   571 The sticky part is that my 'techniques' are secretly based on a couple

   572 of the alternative Transitional goals.  They will hopefully be presented

   573 as 'if you liked how /this/ works, why not try /that/,' and 'if you

   574 liked /that/ then /this also/ might be fun.'  I want to create a series

   575 of step-wise growth /tools/ expressly for facilitating Transition.  This

   576 has been my goal since before I met the Forge.

   577 

   578 Ultimately one thing became clear in playtest.  It seems hard for

   579 players to have "a strong commitment to Mechanical play."  So far every

   580 test group seems intuitively at ease moving up and down this scale

   581 without hardly noticing it.  (Well, excluding the collectible card game

   582 'testers, they seem pretty rooted in Mechanical play.)

   583 

   584 Now, can you tell me if that answers your question on Gamism is

   585 Scattershot?  Am I still missing something?  (Or is it just my usual

   586 inability to express these ideas clearly on the first go?)

   587 

   588 Fang Langford

   589 

   590 (Who is actually quite curious what others think of a Transitional game

   591 design.)

   592 	Logged

   593 

   594 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   595 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

   596 Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

   597 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

   598 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

   599 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

   600 

   601 *Ron Edwards

   602 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*

   603 Global Moderator

   604 Member

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   613 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12013#msg12013>

   614 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   615 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12013#msg12013>*

   616 « *Reply #4 on:* January 23, 2002, 06:05:36 AM »

   617 	

   618 

   619 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   620 Hi Fang,

   621 

   622 You've expressed yourself very clearly, and I think we're saying pretty

   623 much the same things. Basically, Transition in Scattershot is driven by

   624 preference, and that's a fine thing.

   625 

   626 It seemed to me that the "story-ish" payoff for bringing in the hard

   627 limit was especially nice for a Narrativist player, but I also agree

   628 with you that a Gamist player can find meat in it too. That meat seems a

   629 little less focused in terms of in-game events, but then again, Gamist

   630 play in general is probably the most unapologetically metagame-ish in

   631 its needs, and hence the payoff for those players/GMs will be in

   632 unabashed people-terms, with less need for in-game terms (That dovetails

   633 with my previous comments about how good this mode of play is at finding

   634 "the stakes").

   635 

   636 I agree with you about Gamism requiring structure, although in many ways

   637 I think that requirement may be found all 'round the variety among and

   638 within GNS modes (not in every possibility, but scattered all 'round).

   639 

   640 (Side note: I, for one, see no flaw/inconsistency or anything "wrong"

   641 with your use of GNS jargon - your reference to any of it is clear,

   642 fair, and makes sense.)

   643 

   644 Here's my concern now: different participants having different goals. To

   645 pick the most obvious example, we might have Bob who seizes upon the

   646 available techniques to "go Gamist" in a big way, up to and including

   647 open verbal enjoyment of success in those terms (over whom doesn't

   648 matter: GM, fellow player, published scenario, etc). Then we also have

   649 Sam, at the same table, who is equally invested in (at last) playing a

   650 fantasy game which through human efforts of actual play attains the

   651 personal weight and epic consequences of, say, The Lord of the Rings.

   652 

   653 The problem arises because people don't role-play in isolation but with

   654 one another. The goals/modes of GNS operate successfully when shared and

   655 abetted by more than one person. Hence, Bob might be irritated with Sam

   656 for not putting in tactical effort at one point or another; Sam might be

   657 irritated with Bob for not considering the moral/thematic outcomes of

   658 Bob's character's actions.

   659 

   660 To a very large extent, this is probably not solvable. I'm not

   661 suggesting that Scattershot is under any obligation to amend it in any

   662 special way. However, it's clear that you've laid out the philosophical

   663 goals and design of Scattershot along with its mechanics (or rather,

   664 that the final MS is going to be a combination of all these). Your post

   665 illustrates a good example, regarding the Transitional techniques. Will

   666 that sort of material, the (for lack of a better word) philosophical

   667 part, address the issue of Nar/Gam interpretation of the same mechanics

   668 at the same table?

   669 

   670 Best,

   671 Ron

   672 

   673 P.S. "Techniques" is a term I use a lot too, for the same reason you do

   674 - it seems to carry less emotional baggage for people than "rules" or

   675 even "guidelines."

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   688 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12035#msg12035>

   689 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   690 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12035#msg12035>*

   691 « *Reply #5 on:* January 23, 2002, 09:21:05 AM »

   692 	

   693 

   694 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   695 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   696 I agree with you about Gamism requiring structure, although in many ways

   697 I think that requirement may be found all 'round the variety among and

   698 within GNS modes (not in every possibility, but scattered all 'round).

   699 

   700 /That's why we named it Scattershot!/

   701 

   702 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   703 Here's my concern now: different participants having different goals. To

   704 pick the most obvious example, we might have Bob who seizes upon the

   705 available techniques to "go Gamist" in a big way, up to and including

   706 open verbal enjoyment of success in those terms (over whom doesn't

   707 matter: GM, fellow player, published scenario, etc). Then we also have

   708 Sam, at the same table, who is equally invested in (at last) playing a

   709 fantasy game which through human efforts of actual play attains the

   710 personal weight and epic consequences of, say, The Lord of the Rings.

   711 

   712 The problem arises because people don't role-play in isolation but with

   713 one another. The goals/modes of GNS operate successfully when shared and

   714 abetted by more than one person. Hence, Bob might be irritated with Sam

   715 for not putting in tactical effort at one point or another; Sam might be

   716 irritated with Bob for not considering the moral/thematic outcomes of

   717 Bob's character's actions.

   718 

   719 To a very large extent, this is probably not solvable.

   720 

   721 Aye, therein lies the rub.  We don't know if we can reach that plateau

   722 either.  So far, what we have is more based on explaining it so that Sam

   723 knows what Bob is up to and that Bob likes it, and vice versa, and then

   724 suggesting that everyone just 'try to get along' or find a new group.

   725 

   726 I'm pretty sure that if either player are the sort to make an issue out

   727 of this kind of thing, /there is nothing a designer can do about it./

   728 

   729 Quote from: Ron Edwards

   730 I'm not suggesting that Scattershot is under any obligation to amend it

   731 in any special way. However, it's clear that you've laid out the

   732 philosophical goals and design of Scattershot along with its mechanics

   733 (or rather, that the final MS is going to be a combination of all

   734 these). Your post illustrates a good example, regarding the Transitional

   735 techniques. Will that sort of material, the (for lack of a better word)

   736 philosophical part, address the issue of Nar/Gam interpretation of the

   737 same mechanics at the same table?

   738 

   739 Definitely.  That's where I'm going with the whole *Get Emotional!

   740 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457&highlight=emotional>*

   741 nomenclature.  I am trying to make differing goals in gaming more

   742 explicit in lay terms.  I am also trying to make high emotions in player

   743 to player conflict in pursuing those goals into the 'dark side.'  By

   744 this I mean to suggest that a 'live and let live' approach to Sam and

   745 Bob facing off.  If they both understand that their approaches are

   746 different and are willing to forgive the friction caused, instead of

   747 reacting emotionally, then they might be able to still play together.

   748 

   749 At least that's the theory.  /This/ is one thing I have yet to put into

   750 playtest.  Any advice?  Anyone?

   751 

   752 Fang Langford

   753 	Logged

   754 

   755 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   756 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

   757 Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

   758 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

   759 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

   760 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

   761 

   762 *Paul Czege <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4>*

   763 Acts of Evil Playtesters

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   773 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12191#msg12191>

   774 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   775 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12191#msg12191>*

   776 « *Reply #6 on:* January 24, 2002, 03:32:18 PM »

   777 	

   778 

   779 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   780 Hey Fang, Ron,

   781 

   782 To sum up, I dub Scattershot the first Transitional Game Design that I

   783 have seen.

   784 

   785 The discussion of Scattershot as a transitional game design has yet to

   786 draw the interest of Forgers besides the two of you. And I can't help

   787 but wonder if it's because people don't really know why they need one.

   788 

   789 If I'm an activist liberal, I don't really want a centrist candidate.

   790 I'll vote for one because my ideal candidate doesn't stand a chance of

   791 getting elected, and because the centrist is better by far than the

   792 conservative. But I'm not forced into the same situation with RPG's. I

   793 can buy a game that suits my GNS bias and play it with like-minded players.

   794 

   795 What am I missing? Who's the target customer of a transitional game design?

   796 

   797 Paul

   798 	Logged

   799 

   800 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   801 Game weary? Play My Life with Master <http://www.halfmeme.com> and get

   802 your hunch back.

   803 

   804 *joshua neff

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   806 Member

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   816 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   817 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12194#msg12194>*

   818 « *Reply #7 on:* January 24, 2002, 03:41:22 PM »

   819 	

   820 

   821 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   822 Paul--

   823 

   824 Maybe more centrist gamers? I mean, you & I are pervy narrativists, but

   825 there are those out there who groove on simulationism AND narrativism, &

   826 I could see /Scattershot/ appealing to them. (Hell, I could see it

   827 appealing to "reg'lar ol' gamers" who see the outer "traditional"

   828 trappings & dig that kind of thing.)

   829 

   830 I'd be interested to hear from Mike "lemme do the math for you" Holmes

   831 about what he thinks of Scattershot.

   832 	Logged

   833 

   834 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   835 --josh

   836 

   837 "You can't ignore a rain of toads!"--Mike Holmes

   838 

   839 *Mike Holmes

   840 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=42>*

   841 Acts of Evil Playtesters

   842 Member

   843 *

   844 Posts: 9963

   845 

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   850 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12223#msg12223>

   851 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   852 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12223#msg12223>*

   853 « *Reply #8 on:* January 25, 2002, 06:04:46 AM »

   854 	

   855 

   856 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   857 What Josh said. Aren't those people looking for El Dorado (defined as a

   858 simultaneously Sim and Narr game) going to be interested in such? As

   859 I've stated before, I'm not one of those "pervy" Narrativists. Actually,

   860 I like all three of the GNS decision making processes, and can enjoy any

   861 game that is not incoherent. I'm a gaming Centrist (political one, too,

   862 FWIW). The only impediment to my enjoying the potential

   863 Transitionability (to coin a term) of Scattershot would be any

   864 incoherence that it introduced.

   865 

   866 While we're at it, I suppose that I should breach that topic. Why should

   867 we believe that Scatttershot is any less incoherent (sorry for the

   868 double negative) than any other game that previously failed to focus on

   869 a single GNS mode? Actually, I have much less problem with the whole N/S

   870 shift (which does include mechanics to accomplish) than the inclusion of G.

   871 

   872 The argument seems to be, well, the player can use the results either

   873 way, and we'll tell all the players to accept other players conflicting

   874 styles. Isn't this just suggesting drift? Also, this seems like a law

   875 that suggests that you not kill people but includes no punishment for

   876 doing so. My understanding of System Matters is that mere admonishions

   877 to play a particular way that are not supported by the mechanics are

   878 nice, but having actual mechanics that reinforce those admonishions are

   879 better. This is the main complaint about V:tM, right? That it says to

   880 play in one way but provides no support mechanically for that mode of

   881 play. Right?

   882 

   883 So, why does Scattershot get a pass here? Note that I'm really just

   884 playing Devil's advocate here.

   885 

   886 Mike

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   888 

   889 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   890 Member of Indie Netgaming <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indie-netgaming/>

   891 -Get your indie game fix online.

   892 

   893 *Ron Edwards

   894 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*

   895 Global Moderator

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   906 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

   907 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12262#msg12262>*

   908 « *Reply #9 on:* January 25, 2002, 11:01:10 AM »

   909 	

   910 

   911 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   912 Fang,

   913 

   914 I've been thinking about this Transition stuff. A few related points all

   915 contributed to my conclusion, so I'll do points-first and Point last.

   916 

   917 1) Both Gamism and Narrativism are distinguished by the overt priorities

   918 of the real person in play, in that the priority /is/ overt (if not

   919 verbalized). Hence most mechanics involving "player intrusion," to use a

   920 somewhat outmoded or Sim-oriented term, may serve either Gamist or

   921 Narrativist purposes, of particular sorts for each depending on the

   922 mechanic in question.

   923 

   924 2) Much experience has taught me that players committed to either mode

   925 do not hesitate for an instant to insert or interpret their "agenda"

   926 into role-playing through whatever window of opportunity presents

   927 itself, either in mechanics or via social pressure or whatever.

   928 

   929 3) Narrativist agenda is simple: address Premise, via

   930 character-confronts-ethical-conflict. Gamist agenda is similarly simple:

   931 strategize, perform, prevail, via character-conflicts-logistic-conflict.

   932 They are, however, very different from one another and tend not to get

   933 along too easily in the same game, except in fairly specialized

   934 combinations.

   935 

   936 4) If merely provided with player-empowering mechanics that are

   937 either-or-whatever (as referred to in #1 above), the choice of agenda,

   938 per player or group, is essentially catch-as-catch-can. Clearly

   939 Transition may occur in playing Scattershot as currently written, e.g.

   940 Narrativism from the hard limit perhaps, or Gamism from the

   941 currency-management perhaps (these are just examples out of many

   942 possible). The rather ? scattered potential for the Transition, though,

   943 may be troublesome. Note: /may/ be.

   944 

   945 Now for my big point. These two agendas (perhaps at the level of their

   946 multifarious and not-necessarily-compatible subsets) may be further

   947 specified by various mechanics (rules, guidelines, techniques,

   948 whatever). These "specification" variables fall into very, very distinct

   949 forms, because of the clarity of the agendas in question.

   950 

   951 STAKES AND ACHIEVEMENT are the keys to Gamism in general. The thing to

   952 avoid, I think, is "effectiveness is the means to achievement and

   953 achievement is the route to more effectiveness," which creates a

   954 recursive, spin-the-wheels effect that only appeals to a minority of

   955 people who might enjoy Gamism in role-playing. (I, for example, enjoy

   956 Gamist play when the stakes/achievement are rewarded by

   957 bloody-well-winning, /not/ merely by being able to play again, only better.)

   958 

   959 ETHICAL/BEHAVIOR CRUNCH is the key to Narrativism in general. The thing

   960 to avoid here, I think, is de-protagonizing events and habits of play,

   961 as discussed in various places 'round the Forge.

   962 

   963 I suggest that some "evolutionary context" for each of these might be

   964 made available for Scattershot, as a "as we go along"

   965 game-group-developing mechanic. In other words, as you continue to play,

   966 /the rules change or focus/ as folks see fit, in a reasonably comfy, not

   967 patch-it way. So all the rules they've been using get honed or tweaked

   968 or shaped, in such a way that either ethical/behavior crunch or stakes &

   969 achievement are emphasized as the point of play.

   970 

   971 How to do that? Damn good question. Scattershot offers us an arena to

   972 address it.

   973 

   974 Best,

   975 Ron

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   989 *Who's it for?

   990 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12268#msg12268>*

   991 « *Reply #10 on:* January 25, 2002, 11:28:59 AM »

   992 	

   993 

   994 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   995 Paul asks an excellent question.

   996 

   997 Quote from: Paul Czege

   998 To sum up, I dub Scattershot the first Transitional Game Design that I

   999 have seen. -- Ron Edwards

  1000 

  1001 The discussion of Scattershot as a transitional game design has yet to

  1002 draw the interest of Forgers besides the two of you. And I can't help

  1003 but wonder if it's because people don't really know why they need one.

  1004 

  1005 What am I missing? Who's the target customer of a Transitional game design?

  1006 

  1007 

  1008 I can't really say about Transitional designs in general, there are so

  1009 few to know what they are yet, but I can talk about Scattershot; so does

  1010 Joshua:

  1011 

  1012 Quote from: joshua neff

  1013 Paul--

  1014 

  1015 Maybe more centrist gamers? I mean, you & I are pervy narrativists, but

  1016 there are those out there who groove on simulationism AND narrativism, &

  1017 I could see /Scattershot/ appealing to them. (Hell, I could see it

  1018 appealing to "reg'lar ol' gamers" who see the outer "traditional"

  1019 trappings & dig that kind of thing.)

  1020 

  1021 Actually the theory goes something like this.  There are a lot of

  1022 Simulationists-by-habit out there.  Heck, there's a lot of

  1023 Anything-ists-by habit out there.  Why?  I think because of a lack of

  1024 exposure.

  1025 

  1026 So this segment of the intended audience can pick up Scattershot (not

  1027 realizing it is a Transitional game, if I am doing it right), play it

  1028 for a while and notice all this other kooky stuff 'hidden' throughout.

  1029  If they give any of these unfamiliar techniques a try, and like them,

  1030 they have Transitioned from habit to potentially what they would most

  1031 like (again, if I am doing it the way I intend).

  1032 

  1033 Heck, I can't think of anything more 'habit' bound than "reg'lar ol'

  1034 gamers."  That was the primary reason for creating all the "outer

  1035 'traditional' trappings;" to attract /them/.  From my experiences 'over

  1036 the counter' they make up a significant section of 'the market.'  And

  1037 technically, as a retail thought-experiment, Scattershot is supposed to

  1038 reach as much of 'the market' as I can make it.

  1039 

  1040 Secondly, Transition is meant to be /optional/; that means that

  1041 Scattershot could theoretically (provided it succeeds at its design

  1042 specifications) be picked up by /any/ of 'near' "pervy -ists."  If they

  1043 can play it and opt to not Transition (without the rest of the material

  1044 becoming encumbering, excess baggage), then Scattershot reaches a second

  1045 intended audience.  The reason I give this a priority is because if a

  1046 group of habitual gamers discovers they have different tastes, it will

  1047 help them continue gaming if they have a system in common with any of

  1048 the more 'focused' groups they might move to.

  1049 

  1050 Finally, Scattershot is also meant for 'people who have never played

  1051 role-playing games, but would like them if they did.'  This is another

  1052 reason I created it in the traditional guise.  It is more likely that

  1053 'traditional gamers' are the people one would 'hook up with' after

  1054 initial exposure (the remainder of the market doesn't seem as 'flagrant'

  1055 about their gaming status).  Having something like Scattershot in common

  1056 might help 'ease' them into the hobby community.  (There's also the fact

  1057 that the traditional model, for as much as people complain about it,

  1058 /works/, especially for new players.)

  1059 

  1060 Ultimately, Scattershot was not created to meet any clear and present

  1061 need.  Paul says, "people don't really know why they need one," about

  1062 Scattershot.  Who can say?  Nobody 'needed' the internet; nobody

  1063 'needed' fax machines.  Nobody knew they 'needed' pointer devices for

  1064 their computers.  You don't always create something because there's a

  1065 need for it.  Like I always say when someone points out that I am going

  1066 to a *hell* of a lot of effort for something I am intentionally not

  1067 going to market myself, "even if it never sells, I'm gonna have a heck

  1068 of a toy to play with."

  1069 

  1070 (And appealing to centrists is just gravy as far as I'm concerned.)

  1071 

  1072 I think that the fact that people don't 'need' it, will help them help

  1073 me.  That kind of 'need' breeds certain passions for it to come out a

  1074 certain way (to serve the needs of the person who 'needs' it).  Since no

  1075 one 'needs' it, any advice they offer will be geared towards making

  1076 Scattershot transparent to their gaming style (one of the design goals).

  1077 

  1078 Scattershot also wasn't written to appeal to 'far' "pervy" whatever

  1079 types either; my experience is that they generally have something they

  1080 really like a lot and are not likely to go for something new that

  1081 easily.  Likewise targeting any of these groups is questionable at best;

  1082 a fickle market I think.

  1083 

  1084 Anyway, all this is a bunch of theoretical hooey.  I made it

  1085 Transitional, because that's how I play.  Originally it was a game I

  1086 could play with any of the "pervy" groups out there so I can /Zelig/ in

  1087 with each of them.

  1088 

  1089 Fang Langford

  1090 	Logged

  1091 

  1092 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

  1093 Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

  1094 Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

  1095 any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

  1096 can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

  1097 <mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

  1098 

  1099 *Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*

  1100 Member

  1101 

  1102 Posts: 1363

  1103 

  1104 

  1105 View Profile

  1106 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW

  1107 <http://www.scattershotgames.com>

  1108 	

  1109 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12284#msg12284>

  1110 *About what Scattershot's about (GNS yipyap included)

  1111 <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=1265.msg12284#msg12284>*

  1112 « *Reply #11 on:* January 25, 2002, 12:43:01 PM »

  1113 	

  1114 

  1115 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

  1116 Quote from: Mike Holmes

  1117 While we're at it, I suppose that I should breach that topic. Why should

  1118 we believe that Scatttershot is any less incoherent (sorry for the

  1119 double negative) than any other game that previously failed to focus on

  1120 a single GNS mode? Actually, I have much less problem with the whole N/S

  1121 shift (which does include mechanics to accomplish) than the inclusion of G.

  1122 

  1123 The argument seems to be, well, the player can use the results either

  1124 way, and we'll tell all the players to accept other players conflicting

  1125 styles. Isn't this just suggesting drift? Also, this seems like a law

  1126 that suggests that you not kill people but includes no punishment for

  1127 doing so. My understanding of System Matters is that mere admonishions

  1128 to play a particular way that are not supported by the mechanics are

  1129 nice, but having actual mechanics that reinforce those admonishions are

  1130 better. This is the main complaint about V:tM, right? That it says to

  1131 play in one way but provides no support mechanically for that mode of

  1132 play. Right?

  1133 

  1134 So, why does Scattershot get a pass here? Note that I'm really just

  1135 playing Devil's advocate here.