About the Forge </about/> | Articles </articles/> | Forum </forum/> |

Reviews </reviews/> | Resource Library </resources/>

	*

* <#>

Home <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php>

Help <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=help>

Search <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=search>

Login <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=login>

Register <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=register>

Welcome, *Guest*. Please login

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=login> or register

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=register>.

Did you miss your activation email?

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=activate>

March 15, 2006, 02:37:44 PM

Login with username, password and session length

*Forum changes:* Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.

*Search: *    Advanced search

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=search;advanced>

*198792* Posts in *18708* Topics by *5988* Members Latest Member: * -

kuljek

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6115>* 	Most

online today: *113* - most online ever: *271* (February 22, 2006,

03:03:12 PM)

+  *The Forge <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php>*

|-+  *Inactive Forums <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php#5>*

| |-+  *Scattershot <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?board=22.0>*

| | |-+  *Get Emotional!

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.0>* 	« previous

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.0;prev_next=prev>

next » <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457;prev_next=next>

*Pages:* [*1*] 	Print

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=457.0>

Author 	Topic: Get Emotional!  (Read 942 times)

*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*

Member

Posts: 1363

View Profile

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW

<http://www.scattershotgames.com>

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4001#msg4001>

*Get Emotional!

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4001#msg4001>*

« * on:* August 10, 2001, 02:09:00 PM »

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I understand.

Context

I think role-playing gaming is /thinking within the context of the

narrative/; nothing more is necessary.  Anything that fails to have that

does not appear to be gaming.  While some things outside of gaming

elicit contextual thinking, nothing that /is/ gaming _fails_ to do so.

Let me illustrate with what I call the ?behind the bar? effect; let?s

say you?re playing a game set in a bar described with patrons, tables

and their contents, and let?s also say a fight has broken out.  This

could easily be a card game, a war game, /or even a role-playing game/,

there?s no way to tell at this point.

What makes it a role-playing game?  The instant you decide that a

character goes /behind the bar/ and gets something.  It doesn?t matter

what, as long as the player is thinking about what /ought/ to be back

there, they are working within the context of the bar and the fight /and

the role-playing game/.

Emotional Investment

If contextual thinking is the ?what? of gaming, then here is the ?why:?

I believe that one plays role-playing games only for the emotional value

they have for that player.  Not limited to simply enjoyment, gaming can

evoke intrigue, curiosity, or virtually any other emotion, but I?ll just

refer to the whole package as emotional investment.  This is a bit of a

simplification, but I think not an unclear one.

What is gained through this emotional involvement?  I think impact and

payoff are some of the things that result from ?feeling? involved in the

narrative.  This is not about good or bad narratives, only the dividends

of the emotional investment.  I say that the problems with any game are

those that impede the emotional payoff the way inconsistency or loss of

engagement do (to list a couple of examples).

For an example, all game settings I have seen have dynamic backgrounds

or grand conflicts.  When involved, I believe they heighten the return

on a player?s emotional investment.

The Scattershot Model:

Here are our two main frames of reference, personal (things that exist

only at the character level) and the game (everything that includes the

character in it).

Personal Level

The most basic ?contact point? of play involves what you are playing

(even when not the traditional player character).  At this level the

overall game is of reduced importance because it only serves as the

vehicle for the personal identification substance within it.

This is the reason character generation can be so important in many

systems.  The player character is the entity in the game that you will

have the most affinity with.  The sophistication and detail of the

character creation mechanics of a game system reflect the degree and

specificity of emotional investment in things created with them.  When

you ?make them work for it,? the player is likely to care more about

their character.

The most basic component of the personal level of emotional investment

is in its _intrinsic value_.  In this frame of reference, what matters

is what goes on /for/ the character.

This is ?where it all happens? at the most personal level and this can

lead to varying levels of immersion, such as thinking or feeling /as/

the character.  It can also be about watching what a game does to one?s

character from a personal, yet external point of view.  The value stems

from what goes on ?inside? the character or at their level.

The game becomes a vehicle for the expression of value of the character

to the player.  The focus is on how the game affects the character and

by extension, the player.

While still being personal, one can place more emotional investment in

the extrinsic value of their character.  Finding value in the things the

character can do or what the player can do with the character.

 Measuring characters against one and another.  This can include a

certain amount of self-consciousness in the activity too.

The character can become a tool for the player, what they /do/ to the

game is the source of value.  This is about first-person value based on

what you can do as opposed to who you are.

This is also about how the player affects the game, the rush of power

over the game in the most immediate and visceral fashion.  Consistency

can become an issue of high value because without it, the extrinsic

personal value can appear illusory.

Game Level

What exactly is ?game level??  Not a just the setting, genre, or

narrative ? it is a living entity consisting of this and more, it is the

whole, shared experience ranging from (but not limited to) the game

system all the way out to the retelling of the narrative and all points

in between.

Much like the personal frame, the most immediate form of gratification

stems from a game?s intrinsic value, of what makes play so fun.  Whether

it is the setting, play within the resolution system, or something else,

the value is within the game itself.

What the character does, as a part of the game, is where the emotional

pay-off is.  Unusual situations, new experiences, discovery, these are

reflected in the intrinsic value of a game.  The character becomes a

window to what the game has to offer.

This may seem to place central value in the experiential world of the

game, but then that would mean that the world is all there is to the

game.  It isn?t.  There?s the tone, flavor, and atmosphere; there?s the

feeling of a game hard-played, the feeling of let down after the fact,

and more; this all stems from finding the intrinsic value of the game.

Above this is whatever the extrinsic value a game may have.  Usually

this also includes a fair amount of self-awareness.  Not only does play

?know that its just a game,? but it is also willing to ?work with it? on

that level.

This often includes an external perspective of the game.  Many literary

and theatrical devices are used but only for the effect of enhancing

emotional impact of the narrative.  Many lofty things are often ascribed

to this type of play and it can be a heady experience after spending a

lot of time restricted to the personal extrinsic level by a strict

division of powers.

Many newer games invite the players to take a larger part in, if not

partial ownership, of the game.  One hidden problem this poses is the

loss of connection with primary point of contact, their character.  It

scores well in terms of getting players to care for more than their

character alone, but many times the value of the character can get lost

in the new vistas.  And when the players cease to think in the context

of their characters, in context of the game, it stops being role-playing

and becomes ?writing.?

Another thing this perspective includes is comparisons of systems and

genres /between/ games.  When one game tries to ?out do? another in any

fashion, this is the frame that is being applied.  Convention tournament

games have a lot of this too, as do a lot of demos.

Explaining All This in Terms of the GNS Model

Allow me to draw some parallels to the GNS model.  Superficially, if you

generalize this scheme it comes out very like the GNS model (provided

immersion is split from Simulationism).

The combination of immersion and Simulationism only works if the players

find value in both the intrinsic value of their character and the

intrinsic value of the game /simultaneously/.  Since I do not believe

one can make a priority out of self and the world at the same time, I

fail to see how they can be clearly lumped together, one must take a

back seat.  This is not to confuse a Simulationist world with

Simulationistic consistency, though.  Most losses in consistency result

in failed emotional payoffs.

From what I have read, I believe immersive players do not require as

much Simulationist detail in the game, so long as it still creates a

venue for their character in the absence.  I /do/ see how one could

think of immersion as ?simulating? a character, but I do not think this

is what most people idealize when they use the word Simulationism,

especially when it does not seem like one can focus on simulating both

character and world simultaneously.

These frames of reference also suggest a problem with one of the other

GNS comparisons.  It seems to me when comparing Gamism to Narrativism,

it is like comparing oranges and IBMs.

The comparison between Simulationism and Narrativism would be the

difference between the intrinsic and extrinsic value of what the game

evoked.  (I think this would be like comparing apples and oranges.)

The comparison of Gamism and Simulationism shows relation by subject.

 The extrinsic value of a personal frame of reference has value based on

the game and the intrinsic value of a game obviously stems from itself,

making these values relative to the same thing, the game, only from

different perspectives, personal versus game.  (This might be like

comparing Apples and IBMs.)

Therefore comparing Gamism and Narrativism relates the extrinsic value

of the personal frame and the extrinsic value of the game.  These, I

think, are unrelated.  (This would therefore be like comparing oranges

and IBMs.)

(I include these references to the GNS model only as a convenience to

those whose work is primarily with it.  Consider it a starting point to

my explanation of the frames I use.)

Fang Langford

	Logged

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

*Ron Edwards

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9>*

Global Moderator

Member

*

Posts: 12610

View Profile

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9> WWW

<http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com>

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4003#msg4003>

*Get Emotional!

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4003#msg4003>*

« *Reply #1 on:* August 10, 2001, 02:32:00 PM »

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fang,

I think the emotional investment you describe is related, or even

identical, to what I called "imaginative commitment" earlier, when

discussing Exploration.

To review: Exploration is the starting point or act for role-playing.

GNS represents applications/foci/goals for the act.

This is not to undercut or refute any of your post, but rather to agree

with and reinforce it.

Best,

Ron

	Logged

*Le Joueur <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73>*

Member

Posts: 1363

View Profile

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73> WWW

<http://www.scattershotgames.com>

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4007#msg4007>

*Get Emotional!

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg4007#msg4007>*

« *Reply #2 on:* August 10, 2001, 02:42:00 PM »

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

Ron Edwards wrote:

I think the emotional investment you describe is related, or even

identical, to what I called "imaginative commitment" earlier, when

discussing Exploration.

Quote

This is not to undercut or refute any of your post, but rather to agree

with and reinforce it.

Excellent, "imaginative commitment" was what go me started, thanks to

you.  I just felt that a sense of ?committedness? was the emotion at the

root of character identification and emotional investment.  And the

"imaginative" part was too vague on the contextual scheme of things.

Fang Langford

[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-08-11 08:56 ]

	Logged

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fang Langford is formerly the creator of the Scattershot Role-Playing

Game System.  This project has been permanently suspended.  If you have

any questions regarding the implementation of it or anything else, he

can be reached at ripjack@mad.scientist.com

<mailto:ripjack@mad.scientist.com>

*Pages:* [*1*] 	Print

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=457.0> 

« previous

<http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457.0;prev_next=prev>

next » <http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=457;prev_next=next>

Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL <http://www.mysql.com/> Powered by PHP

<http://www.php.net/> 	The Forge | Powered by SMF 1.0.5

<http://www.simplemachines.org/>.

© 2001-2005, Lewis Media <http://www.lewismedia.com/>. All Rights Reserved.

*Oxygen* design by Bloc <http://www.bloczone.net> 	Valid XHTML 1.0!

<http://validator.w3.org/check/referer> Valid CSS!

<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer>